Discussion:
What the fuck is wrong with British people?!
(too old to reply)
l***@hotmail.com
2005-12-22 15:16:41 UTC
Permalink
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece

Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...

-Gniewko
lushhead
2005-12-22 15:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
In other news, Steve Hislop is dead and crocodiles aren't funny
--
To Be Revealed

--
Sent via MotorCycle Newsgroups
http://www.motorcyclenewsgroups.com
Biffa Bacon (mobile)
2005-12-22 15:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by lushhead
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
In other news, Steve Hislop is dead and crocodiles aren't funny
Shit in the carbs ......
--
Cheerz - Brownz
http://www.brownz.org/
Muck
2005-12-22 16:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biffa Bacon (mobile)
Post by lushhead
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
In other news, Steve Hislop is dead and crocodiles aren't funny
Shit in the carbs ......
Piss in the tank ....
--
Bandit 600; CG125; FZR250RR; iCar; Remove _TEETH_ to e-mail
DS#1 ; SH#2 ; SKoGA#7 ; BOMB#16 ; LotR#5 : ICQ: 166144431
"Good speech leaves no mark to be picked at." Skype: mr_muck
Krusty
2005-12-22 16:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Muck
Post by Biffa Bacon (mobile)
Post by lushhead
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
In other news, Steve Hislop is dead and crocodiles aren't funny
Shit in the carbs ......
Piss in the tank ....
Knob cheese in the sandwich ...
--
Krusty.

http://www.muddystuff.co.uk
http://www.muddystuff.us
Off-road classifieds

'02 MV Senna '96 Tiger '79 Fantic 250
R obbo
2005-12-22 16:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biffa Bacon (mobile)
Post by lushhead
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
In other news, Steve Hislop is dead and crocodiles aren't funny
Shit in the carbs ......
Angle grinder
--
Robbo
Trophy 1200 1998
BotaFOF #19. E.O.S.M 2001/2002/2003/2004/2005
B.O.S.M 2003, 2004, 2005
FURSWB#1 KotL..YTC449
PM#7
BotM#4
.
Tim Kreitz
2005-12-22 16:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
-Gniewko
The freakin' Aussies are on the same fast track to a full-blown
surveillance culture. WTF? Scary, scary stuff.

I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.

Cheers,

Tim Kreitz
2003 ZX7R
2000 ZX6R
DoD #2184
http://www.timkreitz.com
Bill Walker
2005-12-22 17:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Kreitz
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
-Gniewko
The freakin' Aussies are on the same fast track to a full-blown
surveillance culture. WTF? Scary, scary stuff.
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
They fought alongside of us for a lot longer than all that, Tim.. They were
alongside of us in WWII and Korea.. They were our allies in Viet Nam.. Great
Britain suffered severe attacks from Germany.. We all came out of those wars
and police actions, determined that we'd never be defeated by aggressors,
Communists and Fascists..

It would seem that after all those years, we've become a nation that
embraces exactly what we fought against.. That's certainly not to say that
America nor England has a majority that does.. it is only to say that we've
not learned to elect the leaders with enough greatness to lead us in the
right directions, anymore.. The slippery slope to aggrssion has been
breached and too many have mistakenly taken that path in response to our
leaders.. Regards

Bill Walker
Irving, Tx...
Post by Tim Kreitz
Cheers,
Tim Kreitz
2003 ZX7R
2000 ZX6R
DoD #2184
http://www.timkreitz.com
Ben J.
2005-12-22 20:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Walker
It would seem that after all those years, we've become a nation that
embraces exactly what we fought against.. That's certainly not to say that
America nor England has a majority that does.. it is only to say that we've
not learned to elect the leaders with enough greatness to lead us in the
right directions, anymore.. The slippery slope to aggrssion has been
breached and too many have mistakenly taken that path in response to our
leaders..
You're damn right, Bill!

Several years back a whole bunch of so-called "leaders" that certain
(mostly Northern) Virginians elected got those surveillence cameras
installed against the wishes of the people. Fortunately, some REAL
leaders stood up to them and got the law repealed and the cameras
removed on July 1, 2005.

The National Motorist Association helped make sure it happened.

Any motorcyclist who is not already a member of the NMA, ought to
join. There are far too many people out there benefitting from the
efforts of this hardworking group without "putting their money where
their mouths are," so to speak.

Here's the story from the Virginia Metro edition of the Washington Post
detailing the ultimately successful fight to get these insidious
devices removed from Virginia highways. It illustrates how "we the
People" need to be on guard against our legally elected representatives
sneaking liberty-robbing measures past us in the name of "safety".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Va. House Panel Cites 'Liberty' In Yanking Red-Light Cameras
By Chris L. Jenkins
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 19, 2005; Page A01

RICHMOND, Feb. 18 -- A House committee on Friday rejected legislation
that would have allowed Virginia communities to continue using
surveillance cameras to ticket red-light runners, signaling the
impending end of the state's 10-year experiment with the technology.

The House Militia, Police and Public Safety Committee defeated five
Senate bills to extend permission to use the cameras beyond July 1. The
monitoring systems are used in six densely populated jurisdictions in
Northern Virginia and Virginia Beach.
Republican delegates who control the committee, many of whom come from
rural parts of Virginia that have not used the cameras, said they had a
duty to uphold basic rights for all Virginians.

"We have a responsibility to balance public safety against liberty,"
said Del. William R. Janis (R-Goochland). "Our job is to figure out
where the lines cross for reasonableness between the compelling need
and the absolute requirement to defend individual liberty."
Virginia is one of 16 states, including Maryland, in which red-light
cameras are used. The District also uses them.

Supporters say the cameras are an important improvement in public
safety, extending the reach of law enforcement officers and reducing
the number of serious accidents caused by red-light runners. But their
use has angered many motorists, who see them as a money-making device
for government and an invasion of privacy.

"My concern with photo red has always been that we're starting to get
into the area with our technology when we start to abridge fundamental
rights . . . the right to be left alone," said Del. C. L. "Clay" Athey
Jr. (R-Warren).

Others pointed to studies that show that rear-end crashes increase at
monitored intersections. They also said there were better ways of
cutting down on red-light runners, such as extending the time of yellow
lights.

"These cameras cause more accidents than they prevent . . . their own
reports show that," said Jim Kadison, a member of the National Motorist
Association, which has long fought the use of the technology.

Lobbyists for safety groups and Northern Virginia legislators, who also
point to studies showing that more serious side-impact collisions
decline at monitored intersections, said they hoped that they could
find a way to have the action reconsidered by the House or amend a
similar bill on the floor of the Senate.

"This is a step away from a reasonable safety measure adopted a decade
ago that has saved lives in the intervening years," said Sen. William
C. Mims (R-Loudoun), who sponsored one of the bills.

But members of the House Republican leadership said they don't want the
bills reconsidered.

"It was an experiment. . . . These people were not promised any longer
than July 1," said House Majority Leader H. Morgan Griffith (R-Salem),
who has opposed efforts to extend the authority. "We gave them what we
promised them 10 years ago, and now it's done."
"It would be extraordinarily difficult to resurrect these bills," said
G. Paul Nardo, the chief aide for House Speaker William J. Howell
(R-Stafford).

Some of the Northern Virginia lawmakers saw the defeat of the camera
bills as another rejection by legislators who are unfamiliar with the
region's needs.

"There really continues to be a lack of understanding on how we live
and who we are," said Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple (D-Arlington).

Del. J. Chapman Petersen (D-Fairfax), who is a member of the committee
and voted for the bills, said: "People talk about Big Brother, but it's
Big Brother when Richmond overrides local authority. I'm very
disappointed. Very disappointed."

The Militia, Police and Public Safety Committee, generally conservative
on issues involving personal liberty, is often used by a House speaker
to kill bills that don't reflect the philosophy of the Republican
majority, some delegates said.

"The speaker puts his most trusted people on there to take the
hard-line Republican vote," Del. David B. Albo (R-Fairfax) said. "The
committee is stacked to reflect the position of the statewide party of
public safety issues."

Staff writer Ian Shapira contributed to this report.
AndrewR
2005-12-22 20:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben J.
Post by Bill Walker
It would seem that after all those years, we've become a nation that
embraces exactly what we fought against.. That's certainly not to
say that America nor England has a majority that does.. it is only
to say that we've not learned to elect the leaders with enough
greatness to lead us in the right directions, anymore.. The slippery
slope to aggrssion has been breached and too many have mistakenly
taken that path in response to our leaders..
You're damn right, Bill!
Several years back a whole bunch of so-called "leaders" that certain
(mostly Northern) Virginians elected got those surveillence cameras
installed against the wishes of the people. Fortunately, some REAL
leaders stood up to them and got the law repealed and the cameras
removed on July 1, 2005.
The National Motorist Association helped make sure it happened.
Any motorcyclist who is not already a member of the NMA, ought to
join.
Why the hell would any motorcyclist wish to join an organisation that
lobbies to prevent the use of technology that discourages people from
running red lights?

I mean, seriously, what kind of fuckwit do you have to be to be out on a
bike thinking it's great that car drivers know they can run red lights and
get away with it?

I'm all for liberty and freedom and all of that shit, but I'd be a lot less
for it if I was half-way across a junction watching 4 tonnes of pickup
heading straight for me at 50mph.
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL)
BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR#
The speccy Geordie twat.
Ben J.
2005-12-22 21:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Post by Ben J.
Post by Bill Walker
It would seem that after all those years, we've become a nation that
embraces exactly what we fought against.. That's certainly not to
say that America nor England has a majority that does.. it is only
to say that we've not learned to elect the leaders with enough
greatness to lead us in the right directions, anymore.. The slippery
slope to aggrssion has been breached and too many have mistakenly
taken that path in response to our leaders..
You're damn right, Bill!
Several years back a whole bunch of so-called "leaders" that certain
(mostly Northern) Virginians elected got those surveillence cameras
installed against the wishes of the people. Fortunately, some REAL
leaders stood up to them and got the law repealed and the cameras
removed on July 1, 2005.
The National Motorist Association helped make sure it happened.
Any motorcyclist who is not already a member of the NMA, ought to
join.
Why the hell would any motorcyclist wish to join an organisation that
lobbies to prevent the use of technology that discourages people from
running red lights?
I mean, seriously, what kind of fuckwit do you have to be to be out on a
bike thinking it's great that car drivers know they can run red lights and
get away with it?
I'm all for liberty and freedom and all of that shit, but I'd be a lot less
for it if I was half-way across a junction watching 4 tonnes of pickup
heading straight for me at 50mph.
What kind of fuckwit would read a news report that includes the
following:

"These cameras cause more accidents than they prevent . . . their own
reports show that"

and not at least pause to think before calling the person who questions
the use of that technology a fuckwit?

Accidents INCREASED at interesections where red light cameras were
installed in northern Virginia, in suburban Maryland, and in the
District of Columbia.

As a motorcyclist, I would prefer that the government NOT install
technology that causes an INCREASE in accidents at grade level
intersections, which are the precise places where a large number of
motorcyclists are injured as a result of collisons with other vehicles.

I mean, seriously, I might actually consider whether the trade-off
between increased government surveillance and decreased risk were
worthwhile if there WERE any decrease in risk. But seriously, what
kind of fuckwit would want to ADD additional government intrusion in
exchange for an INCREASE in personal risk of accident and injury?
AndrewR
2005-12-22 21:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben J.
Post by AndrewR
I mean, seriously, what kind of fuckwit do you have to be to be out
on a bike thinking it's great that car drivers know they can run red
lights and get away with it?
What kind of fuckwit would read a news report that includes the
"These cameras cause more accidents than they prevent . . . their own
reports show that"
And what kind of fuckwit would take that statement at face value, especially
when the preceeding sections says, "Others pointed to studies that show that
rear-end crashes increase at monitored intersections".

In other words it was quite possible that the total number of accidents
increased, but that a large number of these were rear-end smashes. Now,
which would you rather have - a few cars bending their bumpers or
mid-junction smashes?
Post by Ben J.
As a motorcyclist, I would prefer that the government NOT install
technology that causes an INCREASE in accidents at grade level
intersections, which are the precise places where a large number of
motorcyclists are injured as a result of collisons with other
vehicles.
If you'd been at all open minded on the subject of cameras you'd have made
the effort to ask the most basic questions about them, such as, "How can a
camera make accidents more likely?".
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL)
BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR#
The speccy Geordie twat.
Ben J.
2005-12-22 21:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Post by Ben J.
Post by AndrewR
I mean, seriously, what kind of fuckwit do you have to be to be out
on a bike thinking it's great that car drivers know they can run red
lights and get away with it?
What kind of fuckwit would read a news report that includes the
"These cameras cause more accidents than they prevent . . . their own
reports show that"
And what kind of fuckwit would take that statement at face value, especially
when the preceeding sections says, "Others pointed to studies that show that
rear-end crashes increase at monitored intersections".
What kind of fuckwit would ASSume that a person who has followed the
experimental law for years, has been a member of the organization
studying it, and who posted a newspaper report detailing the repeal of
the law would not have seen more evidence than one statement in one
news report? What kind of a fuckwit would ASSume that the single
statement "Others pointed to studies that show that rear-end crashes
increase at monitored intersections" would somehow be more accurate and
would ensure that the repealed law magically increased motorcyclist's
safety? What kind of fuckwit would ASSume that this one issue is the
ONLY issue that the National Motorists Association would work on?
Post by AndrewR
In other words it was quite possible that the total number of accidents
increased, but that a large number of these were rear-end smashes. Now,
which would you rather have - a few cars bending their bumpers or
mid-junction smashes?
Well, if you are now admitting that your initial over the top and
vitriolic response should be tempered by an understanding of the actual
law, its effect, and the competing interests of the people who
commissioned the studies that were referenced in the article, I'll
accept your admission. Perhaps you're not the total fuckwit that one
might ASSume you are based on your idiotic initial response.
Post by AndrewR
Post by Ben J.
As a motorcyclist, I would prefer that the government NOT install
technology that causes an INCREASE in accidents at grade level
intersections, which are the precise places where a large number of
motorcyclists are injured as a result of collisons with other vehicles.
If you'd been at all open minded on the subject of cameras you'd have made
the effort to ask the most basic questions about them, such as, "How can a
camera make accidents more likely?".
And if you would apply more of the type of thinking that you displayed
above that led to your question regarding the relative numbers of types
of accidents that were recorded, you might consider that that question
was a natural follow-up to the statistical evidence that was reported,
and has already been asked and answered, ergo the repeal of the law.

Or, you might simply take the lazy way out and ASSume that anyone you
correspond with is a fuckwit.
AndrewR
2005-12-22 21:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben J.
Post by AndrewR
And what kind of fuckwit would take that statement at face value,
especially when the preceeding sections says, "Others pointed to
studies that show that rear-end crashes increase at monitored
intersections".
What kind of fuckwit would ASSume that a person who has followed the
experimental law for years, has been a member of the organization
studying it, and who posted a newspaper report detailing the repeal of
the law would not have seen more evidence than one statement in one
news report?
Funny, because all the fuckwit posted was one statement in a newspaper
report.
Post by Ben J.
What kind of a fuckwit would ASSume that the single
statement "Others pointed to studies that show that rear-end crashes
increase at monitored intersections" would somehow be more accurate
and would ensure that the repealed law magically increased
motorcyclist's safety?
Well call me a fuckwit as much as you like, and I see that you are, but any
biker who doesn't think that people jumping red lights is a very bad thing
from a biker's perspective is pretty fucking stupid and something to ensure
that the mongs who do jump lights get (a) caught and (b) told not to do it
again is a good thing.

You and your moronic organisation seem to think that defending your civil
right to run red lights without being photographed is more important.
Post by Ben J.
What kind of fuckwit would ASSume that this
one issue is the ONLY issue that the National Motorists Association
would work on?
I couldn't give a fuck what issues they work on - if they think this is a
good cause I wouldn't associate myself with them.
Post by Ben J.
Well, if you are now admitting that your initial over the top and
vitriolic response should be tempered by an understanding of the
actual law, its effect, and the competing interests of the people who
commissioned the studies that were referenced in the article, I'll
accept your admission.
No, I think you're a fuckwit if you ride a bike and don't want everything
possible to be done to stop driver running red lights.
Post by Ben J.
Or, you might simply take the lazy way out and ASSume that anyone you
correspond with is a fuckwit.
I don't know, the "ASSume" thing isn't really working in your favour.
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL)
BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR#
The speccy Geordie twat.
Ben J.
2005-12-22 21:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Well call me a fuckwit
Fuckwit.

<ploink>
AndrewR
2005-12-22 22:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben J.
Post by AndrewR
Well call me a fuckwit
Fuckwit.
<ploink>
Cool, I've never been ploinked before.

I love it when people just give in.
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL)
BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR#
The speccy Geordie twat.
Grimly Curmudgeon
2005-12-22 23:10:37 UTC
Permalink
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "AndrewR"
Post by AndrewR
Post by Ben J.
Post by AndrewR
Well call me a fuckwit
Fuckwit.
<ploink>
Cool, I've never been ploinked before.
I love it when people just give in.
Personal freedom, innit?
--
Dave

GS850x2 XS650

On UKRM you're just a cunt with opinions.
Beav
2005-12-23 15:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Post by Ben J.
Post by AndrewR
Well call me a fuckwit
Fuckwit.
<ploink>
Cool, I've never been ploinked before.
I've heard it's not painful, or any hardship, so you'll be fine. Well I'm
ASSuming you will.
Post by AndrewR
I love it when people just give in.
I wonder where he'd stand if some real fuckwit piled into him after ignoring
a red light? Probably not on his feet, as it happens.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Ben J.
2005-12-23 17:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
I wonder where he'd stand if some real fuckwit piled into him after ignoring
a red light? Probably not on his feet, as it happens.
Well, since accidents have INCREASED at intersections with red light
cameras, as I approach the intersection I would have to INCREASE my
scanning, DECREASE my speed, cover my brakes and clutch, downshift, and
be prepared to stop, accelerate, or swerve to avoid the perpetrator,
just as I have been doing for alnost 30 years with a - so far, knock on
wood - 100% success ratio.

Given my choice (and I have been) I would prefer to traverse
intersections that do NOT have red light cameras, since it has been
conclusively demonstrated that such intersections are safer than they
would be if they had red light cameras installed.

There will always be fuckwits out on the roads with us, just as there
are fuckwits in newsgroups. It's our duty in both places to avoid
them, once their presence has been noted.

It's a shame we can't just ploink the ones on the road, though!

Ben
Beav
2005-12-23 23:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben J.
Post by Beav
I wonder where he'd stand if some real fuckwit piled into him after ignoring
a red light? Probably not on his feet, as it happens.
Well, since accidents have INCREASED at intersections with red light
cameras, as I approach the intersection I would have to INCREASE my
scanning, DECREASE my speed, cover my brakes and clutch, downshift, and
be prepared to stop, accelerate, or swerve to avoid the perpetrator,
just as I have been doing for alnost 30 years with a - so far, knock on
wood - 100% success ratio.
As someone said, what TYPE of accidents? It won't be the cross junction
smacks will it?
Post by Ben J.
Given my choice (and I have been) I would prefer to traverse
intersections that do NOT have red light cameras, since it has been
conclusively demonstrated that such intersections are safer than they
would be if they had red light cameras installed.
Conclusively? I seriously doubt that the type of accidents the cams are
there to reduce have increased.
Post by Ben J.
There will always be fuckwits out on the roads with us, just as there
are fuckwits in newsgroups. It's our duty in both places to avoid
them, once their presence has been noted.
It's a shame we can't just ploink the ones on the road, though!
Ploinking people will soon become a criminal offense and camera's will be
installed to document their activity. They're going DARN my son.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Bill Walker
2005-12-23 11:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Post by Ben J.
Post by AndrewR
And what kind of fuckwit would take that statement at face value,
especially when the preceeding sections says, "Others pointed to
studies that show that rear-end crashes increase at monitored
intersections".
What kind of fuckwit would ASSume that a person who has followed the
experimental law for years, has been a member of the organization
studying it, and who posted a newspaper report detailing the repeal of
the law would not have seen more evidence than one statement in one
news report?
Funny, because all the fuckwit posted was one statement in a newspaper
report.
Post by Ben J.
What kind of a fuckwit would ASSume that the single
statement "Others pointed to studies that show that rear-end crashes
increase at monitored intersections" would somehow be more accurate
and would ensure that the repealed law magically increased
motorcyclist's safety?
Well call me a fuckwit as much as you like, and I see that you are, but
any biker who doesn't think that people jumping red lights is a very bad
thing from a biker's perspective is pretty fucking stupid and something to
ensure that the mongs who do jump lights get (a) caught and (b) told not
to do it again is a good thing.
You and your moronic organisation seem to think that defending your civil
right to run red lights without being photographed is more important.
Post by Ben J.
What kind of fuckwit would ASSume that this
one issue is the ONLY issue that the National Motorists Association
would work on?
I couldn't give a fuck what issues they work on - if they think this is a
good cause I wouldn't associate myself with them.
Post by Ben J.
Well, if you are now admitting that your initial over the top and
vitriolic response should be tempered by an understanding of the
actual law, its effect, and the competing interests of the people who
commissioned the studies that were referenced in the article, I'll
accept your admission.
No, I think you're a fuckwit if you ride a bike and don't want everything
possible to be done to stop driver running red lights.
Post by Ben J.
Or, you might simply take the lazy way out and ASSume that anyone you
correspond with is a fuckwit.
I don't know, the "ASSume" thing isn't really working in your favour.
If you truly want to remedy the redlight running.. I'd suggest that
legislation to impose "real penalties" for anyone who fails to yield right
of way should be examined.. When a motorcyclist is run down in an
intersection, he is generally on his own to pursue redress .. The penalty
otherwise is usually a citation for running a redlight or stop sign.. He
pays his fine to the jurisdiction.. the biker is not compensated from that
money.. Failure to Yield Bills have been introduced into many legislatures
across the country.. They provide real penalties when death, injury or
property damage is involved.. Those Bills ensure that the violator will
serve real time incarcerated..

The illusion of safety and protection that is indoctrinated in Americans are
costing them their freedom and liberty.. Once we have voted away those
freedoms and liberty, they are gone and we are still left out here, trying
to live in a dangerous world..

Bill Walker
Irving, Tx.
Post by AndrewR
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL)
BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR#
The speccy Geordie twat.
Bill Walker
2005-12-23 11:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Post by Ben J.
Post by AndrewR
I mean, seriously, what kind of fuckwit do you have to be to be out
on a bike thinking it's great that car drivers know they can run red
lights and get away with it?
What kind of fuckwit would read a news report that includes the
"These cameras cause more accidents than they prevent . . . their own
reports show that"
And what kind of fuckwit would take that statement at face value,
especially when the preceeding sections says, "Others pointed to studies
that show that rear-end crashes increase at monitored intersections".
In other words it was quite possible that the total number of accidents
increased, but that a large number of these were rear-end smashes. Now,
which would you rather have - a few cars bending their bumpers or
mid-junction smashes?
Post by Ben J.
As a motorcyclist, I would prefer that the government NOT install
technology that causes an INCREASE in accidents at grade level
intersections, which are the precise places where a large number of
motorcyclists are injured as a result of collisons with other
vehicles.
If you'd been at all open minded on the subject of cameras you'd have made
the effort to ask the most basic questions about them, such as, "How can a
camera make accidents more likely?".
Fuckwits come in all flavors.. don't they ? The subject of this discussion
is redlight monitoring devices.. cameras.. It goes furthur and much deeper..
Those who eagerly embrace the cameras that take you picture will also
embrace a wiretap on his telephone or computer.. They will be just as
enthusiastic about the cameras that monitor the movements of people who are
going about the everyday living they are engaged in.. After all, it is all
about their own protection and safety, right ?

First of all, those redlight cameras are not about your safety.. or
protection.. They are primarily and foremost .. to enhance revenue for the
jurisdiction where they are located.. They are also a revenue enhancement
for the company that is providing them for that jurisdiction.. In order to
make them acceptable to people, all they have to do is include the "safety
and protection" words in the sales pitch..

Safety and protection is not a good thing when it invades my privacy or
liberty to move about freely.. Wanna be safe and protected.. find a rubber
room somewhere, go inside .. lock the door and accept your meals through a
slot.. There is a guard down the hallway to ensure that you will be safe and
protected.. No thanks..

The traffic monitoring cameras are only the tip of the iceberg.. The are
other measures that are being introduced to Americans that are for our
safety and protection.. Those measures are far more insidious and
threatening.. When they are examined closely, they threaten freedoms and
liberty of the people.. That's not a good thing ..

Bill Walker
Irving, Tx.
Post by AndrewR
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL)
BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR#
The speccy Geordie twat.
NZMSC
2005-12-23 09:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben J.
Accidents INCREASED at interesections where red light
cameras were installed in northern Virginia, in suburban
Maryland, and in the District of Columbia.
What sort of accidents increased, Ben?

Did the number of mid-junction crashes reduce?

Did the placement of cameras have any effect on the injury
and seriousness of injury rate in those intersections.?

You seem to be knowledgable about this since you have
obviously campaigned about this, so I guess you must have
this data.

If you could post it, I'd be grateful as it would be useful
for me in my consideration of this matter as we have red
light cameras here, too.
--
Allan Kirk,
Megarider Organisation,
(Saving motorcyclists' lives since 1971 )
www.megarider.com
Ben J.
2005-12-23 15:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by NZMSC
What sort of accidents increased, Ben?
Did the number of mid-junction crashes reduce?
Did the placement of cameras have any effect on the injury
and seriousness of injury rate in those intersections.?
If you could post it, I'd be grateful as it would be useful
for me in my consideration of this matter as we have red
light cameras here, too.
Sure.

See: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/05-vdot.pdf

See: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/95aussie.pdf

See: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/burkeyobeng.pdf


Excerpts, comments, related stories:

Thursday, January 27, 2005

All Virginia red light camera studies show increased injury accidents
More bad news for friends of Big Brother -- their precious red light
cameras that were supposed to generate so much revenue also turn out to
generate more accidents. Via Instapundit, quoting TheNewswpaper.com
A brand new, exhaustive study of all seven Virginia red light camera
programs shows an overall increase in injury accidents has occured
where the devices are installed. The study was performed by The
Virginia Transportation Research Council at the request of the state
transportation secretary. The report also notes a fatal flaw in the
Virginia's camera law -- motorists can ignore any ticket received in
the mail. Only tickets that are personally served matter (the same
thing happened in Arizona).

Despite a distinct sympathy in favor of camera enforcement, the
researchers found a "definite" increase in rear-end accidents and only
a "possible" decrease in angle accidents. Most importantly, the net
effect was that more injuries happened after cameras are installed.
Camera proponents explain this away by asserting angle accidents are
more serious, but this claim has not been scientifically studied
according to this report. The rear end collisions caused by the cameras
still produce injuries -- the original promise of camera proponents was
that they would reduce accidents and injuries, not rearrange them.

This study agrees with long-term findings in Australia and North
Carolina.
The New York Times reported similar findings earlier this month. In
Texas, the Houston City Council recently voted to install red light
cameras at 50 locations citywide and start issuing tickets, but
Houston-area legislator Gary Elkins has filed legislation to forbid the
practice statewide. Grits posted here about potential privacy concerns
with the proliferation of cameras combined with Texas DPS' proposed
database of biometric "facial recognition" data.



Virginia DOT Study Shows Cameras Increase Injury Accidents

The Virginia Transportation Research Council studied all of the state
red light camera programs and found an overall increase in injury
accidents.

A brand new, exhaustive study of all seven Virginia red light camera
programs shows an overall increase in injury accidents has occurred
where the devices are installed. The study was performed by The
Virginia Transportation Research Council at the request of the state
transportation secretary. The report also notes a fatal flaw in the
Virginia's camera law -- motorists can ignore any ticket received in
the mail. Only tickets that are personally served matter (the same
thing happened in Arizona).

Despite a distinct sympathy in favor of camera enforcement, the
researchers found a "definite" increase in rear-end accidents and only
a "possible" decrease in angle accidents. Most importantly, the net
effect was that more injuries happened after cameras are installed.
Camera proponents explain this away by asserting angle accidents are
more serious, but this claim has not been scientifically studied
according to this report. The rear end collisions caused by the cameras
still produce injuries -- the original promise of camera proponents was
that they would reduce accidents and injuries, not rearrange them.

This study agrees with long-term findings in Australia and North
Carolina.

1.7mb PDF format (See above link)

Key Statistic:

Further analysis indicated that the cameras are contributing to a
definite increase in rear-end crashes, a possible decrease in angle
crashes, a net decrease in injury crashes attributable to red light
running, and an increase in total injury crashes. Page xiii

Summary of Empirical Bayes Method (Level 4 Analysis)

[Editor's note: only Fairfax County data reflects the most rigorous
analysis. Other cities did not provide volume, yellow time, and data on
other key factors.] The latter half of Appendix D shows the results of
an Empirical Bayes analysis for Fairfax County crash data only. These
results suggest the following:

The cameras are correlated with an increase in total crashes of 8% to
17%.

The cameras are correlated with an increase in rear-end crashes related
to the presence of a red light; the increase ranges between 50% and
71%.

The cameras are correlated with a decrease in crashes attributable to
red light running, and the decrease is between 24% and 33%.

The cameras are correlated with a decrease in injury crashes
attributable to red light running, with the decrease being between 20%
and 33%.

The cameras are correlated with an increase in total injury crashes,
with the increase being between 7% and 24%.

But it obscures the fact that only a small percentage of crashes are
attributable to red light running. Data from Virginia's Department of
Motor Vehicles, for example, suggested that in 1998 (a year when no red
light cameras were in operation), only 3.3% of all crashes involved a
driver who "ran traffic control" (DMV, 1999).


Article Excerpt:

There is a practical issue with regard to issuing citations for red
light running: the Code of Virginia requires that an in-person summons,
rather than certified mail, be used to compel an individual to appear
in court. Because of the high cost of delivering summonses outside
Virginia, this requirement could make the programs administratively
difficult for some localities if it became commonly known that only an
in-person summons can require a vehicle owner either to pay the penalty
or to appear in court. However, the program can still legally continue
in its present form without a change in the Code. Page xii

A Fairfax County assessment showed a 40% reduction in accidents after 3
months of camera operation (Ruby and Hobeika, 2003). A limitation of
the study, however, was that it covered only a 3-month period. Further,
the study did not account for the changes in the yellow time while the
impact of the cameras was examined. Page 13

The one surviving legal worry actually turns out to be a practical
problem, generated by the interaction of the notice provisions in the
enabling statute and the Commonwealth's other service requirements.
Because the mere mailing of a ticket without personal service by a law
enforcement officer does not constitute sufficient notice under the
statute's own terms, successful enforcement may require personal
in-hand service if the accused fails to either pay the penalty or come
to court. Although the statute permits the jurisdiction to make the
initial attempt to summon the accused to court via mail, if the person
fails to respond, he or she is not considered to have been
satisfactorily served with notice. However, personal service on all
violators is obviously a very expensive proposition, involving many
personnel hours, and would defeat one of the primary motivating factors
for employing automated detection systems in the first place-a
reduction in the number of officers required to enforce red light laws.
Thus, unless a jurisdiction is willing to devote resources to
implementing extensive in-hand service, citations mailed for red light
camera violations become essentially unenforceable. The average citizen
is probably not aware of this loophole, but if word were widely
disseminated, such knowledge could completely undermine the
effectiveness of red light camera programs, as citations issued to
violators would lose their practical impact. Again, this is a
practical, but not legal, challenge.


Australian Study of Red Light Cameras (Andreassen)

An exhaustive ten-year study of the effect of red light cameras on
accident rates in Australia.

The most complete study of the correlation of accidents and the use of
red light cameras. It closely examined every accident report filed over
a ten year period (including several years before and after cameras
were installed). It found the cameras provided no benefit.

2.4mb PDF File (See above link)

Article Excerpt:

The results of this study suggest that the installation of the RLC at
these sites did not provide any reduction in accidents, rather there
has been increases in rear end and adjacent approaches accidents on a
before and after basis and also by comparison with the changes in
accidents at intersection signals.

Burkey-Obeng Red Light Camera Study
The most extensive U.S. study of the relation of accidents and red
light camera usage.

Researchers at the North Carolina Urban Transit Insitute were
unsatisfied with the overly simplistic methods used in prior insurance
industry funded studies of the effects of red light cameras on
accidents. So they conducted a U.S. Dept. of Transportation funded
study that looked at a 57-month period and accounted for dozens of
variables such as weather and traffic ignored in previous studies. All
told, 17,271 observations went into their conclusions.

Their own summary says it best: "The results do not support the view
that red light cameras reduce crashes. Instead, we find that RLCs are
associated with higher levels of many types and severity categories of
crashes."

Complete study in 366k PDF file. (See above link)

Key Statistic:

[Rear End Accidents] However, in the before/after table (Table 4.2),
the raw data show approximately a 10 percent increase at the RLC sites.
This difference alone accounts for roughly a 35 percent difference
attributable to the RLC placement.

[Total Crashes] The model is estimating that, had an RLC not been
placed at a particular intersection, we may have seen a 42% decrease in
the accident rate at that intersection (if we could hold all other
factors constant). Similar to what was seen in the raw data in Section
4, the sites with RLCs are not experiencing the decreasing trend in
accidents seen elsewhere. Additionally, the other characteristics of
intersections with RLCs are not explaining the difference in accident
rates.

Article Excerpt:

The results do not support the conventional wisdom expressed in recent
literature and popular press that red light cameras reduce
accidents.... Our findings are more pessimistic, finding no change in
angle accidents and large increases in rear-end crashes and many other
types of crashes relative to other intersections. We did find a
decrease in accidents involving a vehicle turning left and a vehicle on
the same roadway, which may have been included as an angle accident in
some other studies. However, given that these left turn accidents occur
only one third as often as angle accidents, and the fact that we find
no benefit from decreasing severity of accidents suggests that there
has been no demonstrable benefit from the RLC program in terms of
safety. In many ways, the evidence points toward the installation of
RLCs as a detriment to safety.

Source: A DETAILED INVESTIGATION OF CRASH RISK REDUCTION (Urban Transit
Institute, North Carolina A-T University, 7/1/2004)


Thursday, January 06, 2005

Red light cameras cause rear-end accidents

The New York Times ran an article on the hot-button topic of red light
cameras today, as the Texas Legislature gears up to address the issue
in its 79th session. Here's some interesting highlights:

Cameras ... are now in use [at red lights] in more than 100 American
cities. Activated by road sensors when a car enters an intersection
belatedly, the systems provide evidence of a violation, including
photos of the license plate and in some cases, the driver.

While Baltimore reports that violations for running red lights have
gone down 60 percent at the 47 intersections with such cameras, several
studies in recent years - in places like San Diego, Charlotte, N.C.,
and Australia - have offered a fuzzier picture. The studies have shown
that the reduction in side-angle collisions at the intersections has
been wholly or largely offset by an increase in rear-end accidents like
Ms. Correa's.

In addition, there has been criticism of the cameras' use to generate
revenue from fines - in some cases exceeding $300 per violation, with
points on a driver's record - and of revenue-sharing arrangements with
providers of the technology. Those arrangements, critics contend, have
led to the placement of cameras not necessarily where they would best
promote safety, but where they will rack up the most violations. Those
questions, along with malfunctions and legal challenges, have led some
local governments to remove the cameras. ...

Studies elsewhere ... made a striking finding: rear-end accidents have
shot up at intersections with cameras. In 2002 a consultant's study in
San Diego reported that the number of crashes at camera intersections
had increased by 3 percent after the cameras were installed, almost all
of it a result of a 37 percent increase in rear-endings. "This finding
is not consistent with the program's overall objective of improving
traffic safety," the report's authors concluded.

Other reserachers thought the rear end crashes were safer than crashes
in the intersection because the cars were moving slower, but at best
these statistics are muddy. They certainly don't confirm claims of
grandiose improvements in traffic safety made in Houston.
Beav
2005-12-23 23:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben J.
Post by NZMSC
What sort of accidents increased, Ben?
Did the number of mid-junction crashes reduce?
Did the placement of cameras have any effect on the injury
and seriousness of injury rate in those intersections.?
If you could post it, I'd be grateful as it would be useful
for me in my consideration of this matter as we have red
light cameras here, too.
Sure.
See: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/05-vdot.pdf
Red light running crashes DOWN. Insignificant, but down. Some others up,
also in insignificant numbers.
Post by Ben J.
See: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/95aussie.pdf
Adjacent approaches down.
Post by Ben J.
See: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/burkeyobeng.pdf
But the general concensus is that RLC's reduce cross junction accidents. The
accidents that tend to cause the most injuries.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Greek Shipping Magnets
2005-12-23 16:55:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:49:22 -0000, "AndrewR"
Post by AndrewR
Why the hell would any motorcyclist wish to join an organisation that
lobbies to prevent the use of technology that discourages people from
running red lights?
Probably because they don't want the multi-car pileups?

We have them here. They rear end one another all the time. Cause you
know about the cam, but the idiot behind you doesn't. So now you're
forced to run the light and get ticketed or get nice case of whiplash.
Beav
2005-12-23 23:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greek Shipping Magnets
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:49:22 -0000, "AndrewR"
Post by AndrewR
Why the hell would any motorcyclist wish to join an organisation that
lobbies to prevent the use of technology that discourages people from
running red lights?
Probably because they don't want the multi-car pileups?
We have them here. They rear end one another all the time. Cause you
know about the cam, but the idiot behind you doesn't. So now you're
forced to run the light and get ticketed or get nice case of whiplash.
And make a claim against the intruder. It's the american way isn't it?
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
pieface
2005-12-24 00:19:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Greek Shipping Magnets
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:49:22 -0000, "AndrewR"
Post by AndrewR
Why the hell would any motorcyclist wish to join an organisation that
lobbies to prevent the use of technology that discourages people from
running red lights?
Probably because they don't want the multi-car pileups?
We have them here. They rear end one another all the time. Cause you
know about the cam, but the idiot behind you doesn't. So now you're
forced to run the light and get ticketed or get nice case of whiplash.
And make a claim against the intruder. It's the american way isn't it?
If your still alive.
Nidge
2005-12-23 12:05:28 UTC
Permalink
That's certainly not to say that America nor >England has a majority that
does.. it is only to >say that we've not learned to elect the leaders
with enough greatness to lead us in the right >directions, anymore..
What really scares me is I suspect *that* majority might only be the
majority of people who bother to look at what's actually going on rather
than the actual majority that seems only to look up long enough to check
the channel setting for the next 'reality TV' show.

Happy new year. : (

Nidge
Andy Wegg
2005-12-22 20:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
You don't understand it? Neither do I and I live here (UK). But FWIW,
I've been against cameras from the start as it was clearly the thin end
of the wedge. It's getting to the point where I would move away, if it
weren't for family ties.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
muddy
2005-12-22 21:04:17 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Andy Wegg
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
You don't understand it? Neither do I and I live here (UK). But FWIW,
I've been against cameras from the start as it was clearly the thin end
of the wedge. It's getting to the point where I would move away, if it
weren't for family ties.
They installed 6 cameras in San Francisco on a 'test' basis in a
particularly shite area. According to their data, crime dropped 45%. Not
only will those stay, they are installing more of them.

I don't care for them either but it looks like they are only going to
multiply like rabbits.
--
Mike
DL1000 (WarthogII) SV650 (for sale) UKRMMA#22
Skype: mikebothe
Remember my name, you'll be screaming it later.
Solo Rider
2005-12-22 21:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by muddy
In article
Post by Andy Wegg
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
You don't understand it? Neither do I and I live here (UK). But FWIW,
I've been against cameras from the start as it was clearly the thin end
of the wedge. It's getting to the point where I would move away, if it
weren't for family ties.
They installed 6 cameras in San Francisco on a 'test' basis in a
particularly shite area. According to their data, crime dropped 45%. Not
only will those stay, they are installing more of them.
I don't care for them either but it looks like they are only going to
multiply like rabbits.
The perps in those areas are too dumb to take out the cameras. Even so,
given the overall mentality in 'Frisco, I am surprised to see them continue,
let alone multiply. Then again, we do know what Frisco cops do with hand
held cameras 8-)
muddy
2005-12-22 22:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
Post by muddy
In article
Post by Andy Wegg
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
You don't understand it? Neither do I and I live here (UK). But FWIW,
I've been against cameras from the start as it was clearly the thin end
of the wedge. It's getting to the point where I would move away, if it
weren't for family ties.
They installed 6 cameras in San Francisco on a 'test' basis in a
particularly shite area. According to their data, crime dropped 45%. Not
only will those stay, they are installing more of them.
I don't care for them either but it looks like they are only going to
multiply like rabbits.
The perps in those areas are too dumb to take out the cameras. Even so,
given the overall mentality in 'Frisco, I am surprised to see them continue,
let alone multiply. Then again, we do know what Frisco cops do with hand
held cameras 8-)
The perps aren't bright enough to mount a laser attack, the housings and
bulletproof and they've banned the .50 cal weapons.
--
Mike
DL1000 (WarthogII) SV650 (for sale) UKRMMA#22
Skype: mikebothe
Remember my name, you'll be screaming it later.
Solo Rider
2005-12-23 01:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by muddy
Post by Solo Rider
Post by muddy
In article
Post by Andy Wegg
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
You don't understand it? Neither do I and I live here (UK). But FWIW,
I've been against cameras from the start as it was clearly the thin end
of the wedge. It's getting to the point where I would move away, if it
weren't for family ties.
They installed 6 cameras in San Francisco on a 'test' basis in a
particularly shite area. According to their data, crime dropped 45%. Not
only will those stay, they are installing more of them.
I don't care for them either but it looks like they are only going to
multiply like rabbits.
The perps in those areas are too dumb to take out the cameras. Even so,
given the overall mentality in 'Frisco, I am surprised to see them continue,
let alone multiply. Then again, we do know what Frisco cops do with hand
held cameras 8-)
The perps aren't bright enough to mount a laser attack, the housings and
bulletproof and they've banned the .50 cal weapons.
'Frisco is trying to ban all handguns too, and not for the first time. Its
also not going to work.

No commercial camera housing is bulletproof, even against hunting rounds.
No lens can stand up to a pellet gun
platypus
2005-12-22 22:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by muddy
They installed 6 cameras in San Francisco on a 'test' basis in a
particularly shite area. According to their data, crime dropped 45%.
Not only will those stay, they are installing more of them.
I don't care for them either but it looks like they are only going to
multiply like rabbits.
If crime drops near the cameras, then they obviously work, and more should
be installed. If crime fails to drop, then they obviously don't have enough
cameras, and more should be installed.
--
platypus

the old ennui
AndrewR
2005-12-22 22:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by platypus
If crime drops near the cameras, then they obviously work, and more
should be installed. If crime fails to drop, then they obviously
don't have enough cameras, and more should be installed.
And if crime stays about the same you can always make a few quid flogging
the footage to crap TV production companies who want to make shitty shows
about real life crime in modern Britain.
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL)
BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR#
The speccy Geordie twat.
Bill Walker
2005-12-23 11:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by muddy
In article
Post by Andy Wegg
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
You don't understand it? Neither do I and I live here (UK). But FWIW,
I've been against cameras from the start as it was clearly the thin end
of the wedge. It's getting to the point where I would move away, if it
weren't for family ties.
They installed 6 cameras in San Francisco on a 'test' basis in a
particularly shite area. According to their data, crime dropped 45%. Not
only will those stay, they are installing more of them.
I don't care for them either but it looks like they are only going to
multiply like rabbits.
Yup.. They sure will.. Texas is beginning to follow the trend, also.. Some
jurisdictions have commenced to install traffic monitoring devices .. We get
what we vote for and Americans are voting away their freedom and liberty so
fast, it is incredible..While we embrace the big brother concept of safety
and protection for us, we'll continue to sacrifice freedom and liberty for
the illusion that we are being spoon fed.. Regards

Bill Walker
Irving, Tx.
Post by muddy
--
Mike
DL1000 (WarthogII) SV650 (for sale) UKRMMA#22
Skype: mikebothe
Remember my name, you'll be screaming it later.
John Shirley
2005-12-23 01:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Wegg
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
You don't understand it? Neither do I and I live here (UK). But FWIW,
I've been against cameras from the start as it was clearly the thin end
of the wedge. It's getting to the point where I would move away, if it
weren't for family ties.
Cameras everywhere and linked together--but you guys still have crime,
right? Theft, arson, murder, rape--that kind of thing?
--
John Shirley
http://scsquared.net/blog
esthermofet at comcast dot net
Beav
2005-12-23 16:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Shirley
Post by Andy Wegg
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
You don't understand it? Neither do I and I live here (UK). But FWIW,
I've been against cameras from the start as it was clearly the thin end
of the wedge. It's getting to the point where I would move away, if it
weren't for family ties.
Cameras everywhere and linked together--but you guys still have crime,
right?
Well we will won't we, and if you'd read the whole story, you'd know why.
I'll make it simple for you. Camera's everywhere and linked together... not
yet. It's planned and that's what's been published.

Theft, arson, murder, rape--that kind of thing?

And speeding, don't forget speeding. And red light jumping.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Post by John Shirley
--
John Shirley
http://scsquared.net/blog
esthermofet at comcast dot net
JL
2005-12-23 09:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Kreitz
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
-Gniewko
The freakin' Aussies are on the same fast track to a full-blown
surveillance culture. WTF? Scary, scary stuff.
Bad news sunshine, the Aussies have had OCR on heavy vehicles rego
plates (semi-trailers aka lorries aka pan techs aka whatever the hell
you want to call the bloody things) for at least 5 years.
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
Yup, and the American govt. are bugging the phones of their people
without any court sign off... it ain't just us ducky, you Yankistanis
are just as up to your eyeballs in Big Brother's dubious charms

JL
Bill Walker
2005-12-23 11:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Kreitz
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
-Gniewko
The freakin' Aussies are on the same fast track to a full-blown
surveillance culture. WTF? Scary, scary stuff.
Bad news sunshine, the Aussies have had OCR on heavy vehicles rego plates
(semi-trailers aka lorries aka pan techs aka whatever the hell you want to
call the bloody things) for at least 5 years.
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
Yup, and the American govt. are bugging the phones of their people without
any court sign off... it ain't just us ducky, you Yankistanis are just as
up to your eyeballs in Big Brother's dubious charms
JL
That is a fact.. You might add, that many Americans have come to the
conclusion that "enough is enough".. Many Americans are fighting to persuade
ALL Americans that sacrificing liberty and freedoms for safety and
protection is an illusion that is destroying everything that we and our
allies like Australia, Great Britain and the Canadians have shed blood to
protect.. Many in our respective countries are desperately trying to
convince the ninnies that will enthusiastically embrace those sacrifices of
freedoms for safety and protection are being misled .. Regards..

Bill Walker
Irving, Tx.
JL
2005-12-23 22:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Walker
Post by Tim Kreitz
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
-Gniewko
The freakin' Aussies are on the same fast track to a full-blown
surveillance culture. WTF? Scary, scary stuff.
Bad news sunshine, the Aussies have had OCR on heavy vehicles rego plates
(semi-trailers aka lorries aka pan techs aka whatever the hell you want to
call the bloody things) for at least 5 years.
Post by Tim Kreitz
I don't get it. Those countries spent 45 years fighting right alongside
us in the cold war against the very thing they are now becoming. Orwell
was apparently right.
Yup, and the American govt. are bugging the phones of their people without
any court sign off... it ain't just us ducky, you Yankistanis are just as
up to your eyeballs in Big Brother's dubious charms
JL
That is a fact.. You might add, that many Americans have come to the
conclusion that "enough is enough".. Many Americans are fighting to persuade
ALL Americans that sacrificing liberty and freedoms for safety and
protection is an illusion that is destroying everything that we and our
allies like Australia, Great Britain and the Canadians have shed blood to
protect.. Many in our respective countries are desperately trying to
convince the ninnies that will enthusiastically embrace those sacrifices of
freedoms for safety and protection are being misled .. Regards..
Bill Walker
Irving, Tx.
That's very encouraging to hear, I'm despairing that we're losing that
fight over here.

JL
At least the internet makes it trickier to muzzle opposition
Hank
2005-12-24 14:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Kreitz
The freakin' Aussies are on the same fast track to a full-blown
surveillance culture. WTF? Scary, scary stuff.
How about your boy bu$h spying on Americans in
violation of our Constitutional Rights? When you
combine that with his national security lies and
his war crimes, impeachment seems more than
justified...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1222-07.htm


-

Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed
to raging infernos for hours on end.

http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html

On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which
had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry
at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled
demolition.

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm
Grimly Curmudgeon
2005-12-24 17:33:39 UTC
Permalink
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
Post by Hank
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm
There's a new conspiracy theory born every minute.
--
Dave
GS850x2 SE6a
I demand nothing of you except that you amuse me.
Whinging Courier
2005-12-22 17:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
GINGE
--
CBR1000 GS450
BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3
Solo Rider
2005-12-22 17:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I thought it was considered sporting in the UK to torch GATSOs and such.
Some of the website pictures of GATSO destruction are pretty funny. Here in
the states, Nothing says "FUCK YOU" to a traffic camera quite like a
paintball gun.

Another very cool trick is a laser pointer (red low power). They fry early
digital camera sensors and overwhelm the newer ones. Not clear if the more
powerful green lasers will actually fry them. Useful for nosey neighbors
and messing with those who record public spaces.
l***@hotmail.com
2005-12-22 17:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I thought it was considered sporting in the UK to torch GATSOs and such.
Some of the website pictures of GATSO destruction are pretty funny.
Yeah, I've seen those pictures, and it's a very encouraging thing. But
I would hope that there would be much more uproar and protests against
this crazy plan to spy on everyone, all the time. I don't really follow
the British press (aside from UK bike mags), so I don't know - are
people up in arms about it? It certainly didn't seem like that from the
article... Is everybody over there just accepting this abomination?

-Gniewko
Solo Rider
2005-12-22 18:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I thought it was considered sporting in the UK to torch GATSOs and such.
Some of the website pictures of GATSO destruction are pretty funny.
Yeah, I've seen those pictures, and it's a very encouraging thing. But
I would hope that there would be much more uproar and protests against
this crazy plan to spy on everyone, all the time. I don't really follow
the British press (aside from UK bike mags), so I don't know - are
people up in arms about it? It certainly didn't seem like that from the
article... Is everybody over there just accepting this abomination?
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates of the
Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our tendencies to
ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid. I used to think
the Aussies would be somewhat that way, but they listen to their bureaucrats
as well.
Beav
2005-12-22 20:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I thought it was considered sporting in the UK to torch GATSOs and such.
Some of the website pictures of GATSO destruction are pretty funny.
Yeah, I've seen those pictures, and it's a very encouraging thing. But
I would hope that there would be much more uproar and protests against
this crazy plan to spy on everyone, all the time. I don't really follow
the British press (aside from UK bike mags), so I don't know - are
people up in arms about it? It certainly didn't seem like that from the
article... Is everybody over there just accepting this abomination?
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates of
the Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our tendencies to
ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid. I used to think
the Aussies would be somewhat that way, but they listen to their
bureaucrats as well.
And your gov listens in to your telephone calls without the authority of a
court.

It seems we all have our crosses to bear.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Stupendous Man
2005-12-22 20:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
And your gov listens in to your telephone calls without the authority of a
court.
I was driving a friend around in her Chevy SUV the other day and noticed
that it has "onstar", so I made sure to use many words like "bomb, allah,
martyr" etc.
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty
Solo Rider
2005-12-22 20:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I thought it was considered sporting in the UK to torch GATSOs and such.
Some of the website pictures of GATSO destruction are pretty funny.
Yeah, I've seen those pictures, and it's a very encouraging thing. But
I would hope that there would be much more uproar and protests against
this crazy plan to spy on everyone, all the time. I don't really follow
the British press (aside from UK bike mags), so I don't know - are
people up in arms about it? It certainly didn't seem like that from the
article... Is everybody over there just accepting this abomination?
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates of
the Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our tendencies
to ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid. I used to
think the Aussies would be somewhat that way, but they listen to their
bureaucrats as well.
And your gov listens in to your telephone calls without the authority of a
court.
According to the law cited, they don't need a court order, its black letter
law. The dems are whining, but they supported the legislation that allowed
it. Furthermore it looks like the dems leaked the information about the
monitoring. All the noise they are making is to justify their actions and
deflect the investigation that is coming. Going to make Plamegate look like
small change. That does not mean that I agree with the law, but FISA is a
rubber stamp, since there is no adversarial representation. Its also a very
powerful tool. I had always thought the UK official secrets act was a bad
thing, but FISA and related stuff is pretty scary.

What is scarier is not the ant terror stuff at the Federal level, its the
laws that require telcos and possibly VOIP providers to provide easy access
to law enforcement. Not just the Feds, but local cops and maniacs like NYAG
Spitzer (see http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007713). The good
news is that I can obtain legally a number of things that interfere with
their eavesdropping and reading my email.

In the final analysis, anybody who thought there was anything like
electronic privacy has another thing coming. Echelon (located in the UK
IIRC) being a case in point.
AndrewR
2005-12-22 21:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
What is scarier is not the ant terror stuff
Hey, I saw that film.
--
AndrewR, D.Bot (Celeritas)
Kawasaki ZX-6R J1, Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo
BOTAFOT#2,ITJWTFO#6,UKRMRM#1/13a,MCT#1,DFV#2,SKoGA#0 (and KotL)
BotToS#5,SBS#25,IbW#34, DS#5, COSOC# Suspended, KotTFSTR#
The speccy Geordie twat.
muddy
2005-12-22 21:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Post by Solo Rider
What is scarier is not the ant terror stuff
Hey, I saw that film.
THEM!
--
Mike
DL1000 (WarthogII) SV650 (for sale) UKRMMA#22
Skype: mikebothe
Remember my name, you'll be screaming it later.
Charles Soto
2005-12-23 04:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Post by Solo Rider
What is scarier is not the ant terror stuff
Hey, I saw that film.
THEM!
Phase IV was better.

Charles
--
Charles Soto - Austin, TX *** 1999 GSF1200S, DoD No. "uno"

("Meepmeep" is "rr," as in Roadrunner, my ISP.)
muddy
2005-12-23 05:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Soto
Post by AndrewR
Post by Solo Rider
What is scarier is not the ant terror stuff
Hey, I saw that film.
THEM!
Phase IV was better.
I forgot about that one.
--
Mike
DL1000 (WarthogII) SV650 (for sale) UKRMMA#22
Skype: mikebothe
Remember my name, you'll be screaming it later.
Beav
2005-12-22 21:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates of
the Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our tendencies
to ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid. I used to
think the Aussies would be somewhat that way, but they listen to their
bureaucrats as well.
And your gov listens in to your telephone calls without the authority of
a court.
According to the law cited, they don't need a court order, its black
letter law.
Call it what you like, but it's still happening. Not the sort of thing I'd
like myself.

The dems are whining, but they supported the legislation that allowed
Post by Solo Rider
it. Furthermore it looks like the dems leaked the information about the
monitoring. All the noise they are making is to justify their actions and
deflect the investigation that is coming. Going to make Plamegate look
like small change. That does not mean that I agree with the law, but FISA
is a rubber stamp, since there is no adversarial representation. Its also
a very powerful tool. I had always thought the UK official secrets act
was a bad thing, but FISA and related stuff is pretty scary.
By and large, the official secrets act actually makes sense and the g'mint
still need authority to tap phones on a countrywide basis.
Post by Solo Rider
What is scarier is not the ant terror stuff at the Federal level, its the
laws that require telcos and possibly VOIP providers to provide easy
access to law enforcement. Not just the Feds, but local cops and maniacs
like NYAG Spitzer (see http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007713).
The good news is that I can obtain legally a number of things that
interfere with their eavesdropping and reading my email.
That's a wonderful stealth tax I bet.
Post by Solo Rider
In the final analysis, anybody who thought there was anything like
electronic privacy has another thing coming. Echelon (located in the UK
IIRC) being a case in point.
I don't believe it's a matter or privacy, (it's easy to see into houses, but
generally speaking people don't come up tot he windows and stare inside),
it's more a matter of the ability to spy on "Average Joe". And of course,
the desire to.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Solo Rider
2005-12-22 21:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates
of the Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our
tendencies to ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid.
I used to think the Aussies would be somewhat that way, but they listen
to their bureaucrats as well.
And your gov listens in to your telephone calls without the authority of
a court.
According to the law cited, they don't need a court order, its black
letter law.
Call it what you like, but it's still happening. Not the sort of thing I'd
like myself.
I actually think it sucks, and actively make it hard to do that to me. Auto
encryption of email and hard drives that are transparent to the user vice
tinfoil hat stuff. I do know someone who actually shielded their home. A
bit over the top for me.
Post by Beav
The dems are whining, but they supported the legislation that allowed
Post by Solo Rider
it. Furthermore it looks like the dems leaked the information about the
monitoring. All the noise they are making is to justify their actions
and deflect the investigation that is coming. Going to make Plamegate
look like small change. That does not mean that I agree with the law,
but FISA is a rubber stamp, since there is no adversarial representation.
Its also a very powerful tool. I had always thought the UK official
secrets act was a bad thing, but FISA and related stuff is pretty scary.
By and large, the official secrets act actually makes sense and the g'mint
still need authority to tap phones on a countrywide basis.
It the suppression of the press about the offical secrests act that bothers
me the most. Then again as an American, I may not fully understand it.
Right now the only truly free media is the web. Most if not all of the MSM
has sold their soul to the dems or repukes. Try reading about a single
event in both the Washington Post and the Washington Times. It would be
hard to believe its the same event. That kind of thing.
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
What is scarier is not the ant terror stuff at the Federal level, its the
laws that require telcos and possibly VOIP providers to provide easy
access to law enforcement. Not just the Feds, but local cops and maniacs
like NYAG Spitzer (see
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007713). The good news is that
I can obtain legally a number of things that interfere with their
eavesdropping and reading my email.
That's a wonderful stealth tax I bet.
No so much a tax (though some telcos/ISPs claim it is) but the requiement
that their equipment allow easy and rapid access for monitoring. When
things went digital, and way from the older Bell standard equipment, law
enforcement had a hard time monitoring people. To that end CALEA was
brought forward. http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
In the final analysis, anybody who thought there was anything like
electronic privacy has another thing coming. Echelon (located in the UK
IIRC) being a case in point.
I don't believe it's a matter or privacy, (it's easy to see into houses,
but generally speaking people don't come up tot he windows and stare
inside), it's more a matter of the ability to spy on "Average Joe". And of
course, the desire to.
I have to wonder about how many shagphones they are tapping and what they
are hearing...your taxes at work.
steve auvache
2005-12-22 22:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
I do know someone who actually shielded their home. A
bit over the top for me.
<waves>

In fact you are right, a bit over the top is all you need. It is not
your "locals" that you need to be defending against so doing the sides
is a bit of a waste of effort.
--
steve auvache
still in search of The Perfect Date.
Solo Rider
2005-12-23 01:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve auvache
Post by Solo Rider
I do know someone who actually shielded their home. A
bit over the top for me.
<waves>
In fact you are right, a bit over the top is all you need. It is not
your "locals" that you need to be defending against so doing the sides
is a bit of a waste of effort.
Does the term TEMPEST with regard to electronic security mean anything to
you? If it doesn't do a little reading.

Around here the locals are getting into the surveillance biz too. Passive
IR and electronic.

He added a layer of wire mesh to the outer walls, overlapped, and grounded
while he was building it. Fit right in, given that it is a stucco house.
Apparently it adds to earthquake resistance and lighting as well. It also
makes for a good Faraday Cage.
Beav
2005-12-24 00:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates
of the Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our
tendencies to ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid.
I used to think the Aussies would be somewhat that way, but they
listen to their bureaucrats as well.
And your gov listens in to your telephone calls without the authority
of a court.
According to the law cited, they don't need a court order, its black
letter law.
Call it what you like, but it's still happening. Not the sort of thing
I'd like myself.
I actually think it sucks,
As it happens, so do I.

and actively make it hard to do that to me.

I use a "pay as you go" phone not registered to any name and use that for
90% of my phone calls, so it could prove difficult to trace anything back.
Not that I've got anything worth tracing, and I don't use the 'net for
anything dodgy, so I don't bother shielding that.

Auto
Post by Solo Rider
encryption of email and hard drives that are transparent to the user vice
tinfoil hat stuff.
Oh yes. The tin foil hat is a must :-)

I do know someone who actually shielded their home. A
Post by Solo Rider
bit over the top for me.
Yeah, and me.
Post by Solo Rider
Post by Beav
The dems are whining, but they supported the legislation that allowed
Post by Solo Rider
it. Furthermore it looks like the dems leaked the information about the
monitoring. All the noise they are making is to justify their actions
and deflect the investigation that is coming. Going to make Plamegate
look like small change. That does not mean that I agree with the law,
but FISA is a rubber stamp, since there is no adversarial
representation. Its also a very powerful tool. I had always thought the
UK official secrets act was a bad thing, but FISA and related stuff is
pretty scary.
By and large, the official secrets act actually makes sense and the
g'mint still need authority to tap phones on a countrywide basis.
It the suppression of the press about the offical secrests act that
bothers me the most.
If the g'mint don't want the press to publish they have to issue a "D"
notice. If they don't, they have to suck it up or take the media to court
and prove they lied. Reporting the truth still isn't illegal. Yet.

Then again as an American, I may not fully understand it.

I don't either, and I live here :-)) As I understand i, its main reason for
being was/is to keep sensitive information where it belongs. In g'mint
hands. At one time it carried the death penalty (if you broke it, as it came
into the Treason area), but these days it's crept into all sorts of
occupations. Silly really.
Post by Solo Rider
Right now the only truly free media is the web.
And most of that's total shite.

Most if not all of the MSM
Post by Solo Rider
has sold their soul to the dems or repukes. Try reading about a single
event in both the Washington Post and the Washington Times. It would be
hard to believe its the same event. That kind of thing.
We get the same thing here, depending on which paper you read, or which TV
channel you tune into.
Post by Solo Rider
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
What is scarier is not the ant terror stuff at the Federal level, its
the laws that require telcos and possibly VOIP providers to provide easy
access to law enforcement. Not just the Feds, but local cops and
maniacs like NYAG Spitzer (see
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007713). The good news is
that I can obtain legally a number of things that interfere with their
eavesdropping and reading my email.
That's a wonderful stealth tax I bet.
No so much a tax (though some telcos/ISPs claim it is) but the requiement
that their equipment allow easy and rapid access for monitoring. When
things went digital, and way from the older Bell standard equipment, law
enforcement had a hard time monitoring people. To that end CALEA was
brought forward. http://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/
Fuckers.
Post by Solo Rider
Post by Beav
Post by Solo Rider
In the final analysis, anybody who thought there was anything like
electronic privacy has another thing coming. Echelon (located in the UK
IIRC) being a case in point.
I don't believe it's a matter or privacy, (it's easy to see into houses,
but generally speaking people don't come up tot he windows and stare
inside), it's more a matter of the ability to spy on "Average Joe". And
of course, the desire to.
I have to wonder about how many shagphones they are tapping and what they
are hearing...your taxes at work.
None of mine. That's something that REALLY makes me think about folk. I now
know that oral sex IS talking about it though ;-))
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Guig
2005-12-23 07:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates of the
Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our tendencies to
ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid.
*lol* and this from a twat whose country managed to elect the worlds
stupidest man not once but twice. Can you spell Patriot Act, and
Patriot Act II?
--
"Always look behind you when you hear the closing of the door ... look
hard and you will recognise ... I'm the Architect of War."

Grace, Pulling Strings And Shiny Things, 1994.
Solo Rider
2005-12-23 15:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guig
Post by Solo Rider
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates of the
Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our tendencies to
ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid.
*lol* and this from a twat whose country managed to elect the worlds
stupidest man not once but twice. Can you spell Patriot Act, and
Patriot Act II?
Actually the really stupid one lost to Bush. The last election really has
been the lesser of two bozos, and Gore and Kerry were really the bottom of
the barrel. Look at it this way: How much of a loser do they have to be to
lose to Bush?

Patriot Act was a knee jerk to 911, and I am happy to see its follow on
legislation being in real trouble.
Greek Shipping Magnets
2005-12-23 16:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guig
*lol* and this from a twat whose country managed to elect the worlds
stupidest man not once but twice.
Don't be so hard on Tony.
Post by Guig
Can you spell Patriot Act, and
Patriot Act II?
Afraid not mate, being a stupid American and all.

Thanks goodness though we have you lot to take care of us when we soil
our diapies.
Beav
2005-12-24 00:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greek Shipping Magnets
Post by Guig
*lol* and this from a twat whose country managed to elect the worlds
stupidest man not once but twice.
Don't be so hard on Tony.
Post by Guig
Can you spell Patriot Act, and
Patriot Act II?
Afraid not mate, being a stupid American and all.
Thanks goodness though we have you lot to take care of us when we soil
our diapies.
diapies?
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Guig
2005-12-24 18:34:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:55:26 GMT, Greek Shipping Magnets
Post by Greek Shipping Magnets
Post by Guig
*lol* and this from a twat whose country managed to elect the worlds
stupidest man not once but twice.
Don't be so hard on Tony.
One thing Blair isn't is stupid, he may be a liar, a hypocrite and
lots of other things but he's not stupid.
Post by Greek Shipping Magnets
Thanks goodness though we have you lot to take care of us when we soil
our diapies.
It's just a pity we have to clean up behind you oh so very often.
--
"Always look behind you when you hear the closing of the door ... look
hard and you will recognise ... I'm the Architect of War."

Grace, Pulling Strings And Shiny Things, 1994.
JL
2005-12-23 10:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates of the
Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our tendencies to
ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid.
http://www.aclu.org//safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html


"the power to access to your medical records, tax records, information
about the books you buy or borrow without probable cause, and the power
to break into your home and conduct secret searches without telling you
for weeks, months, or indefinitely."


So. Was the mass protest about your govt. just not reported in the press
then ?

Were you out monkey wrenching the govt that's tapping your phones
illegally ? Or just being a hypocrite ?

At least most of New York state knows a moron when they see him, shame
about the rest of yokels.

JL
Pot, kettle, both in a lovely shade of inaccurate self righteousness.
Solo Rider
2005-12-23 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by JL
Post by Solo Rider
Brits are like the rest of Europe and pretty well follow the dictates of
the Government like sheep. One of the joys of the US is our tendencies
to ignore or monkey wrench when the Government gets stupid.
http://www.aclu.org//safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html
"the power to access to your medical records, tax records, information
about the books you buy or borrow without probable cause, and the power to
break into your home and conduct secret searches without telling you for
weeks, months, or indefinitely."
So. Was the mass protest about your govt. just not reported in the press
then ?
Actually damn few people know about them. The real uproar over the
wiretapping is that most people did not realize that FISA, CALEA, and the
other laws even existed. Unfortunately there is little hope of the laws
being repealed. Governments never give back authority once they have gained
it.
Post by JL
Were you out monkey wrenching the govt that's tapping your phones
illegally ? Or just being a hypocrite ?
I monkey wrench in areas that I disagree with. Also take a very aggressive
line with law enforcement and especially pseudo cops.
Post by JL
At least most of New York state knows a moron when they see him, shame
about the rest of yokels.
Not that sure about NY. They gave a carpetbagger like Hillary a senate
seat.
steve auvache
2005-12-22 17:59:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I thought it was considered sporting in the UK to torch GATSOs and such.
Some of the website pictures of GATSO destruction are pretty funny.
Yeah, I've seen those pictures, and it's a very encouraging thing. But
I would hope that there would be much more uproar and protests against
this crazy plan to spy on everyone, all the time. I don't really follow
the British press (aside from UK bike mags), so I don't know - are
people up in arms about it?
No. They just let HMG fuck them over. 85% of us and rising have
discovered another novel way to get taxed.

Although it has been suggested; in order to meet our pollution targets
we might like to consider driving more slowly and the gatso has made a
small difference to the speeds some folks drive at and as consequence of
that we all have to slow down a bit.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
It certainly didn't seem like that from the
article... Is everybody over there just accepting this abomination?
Pretty much yes.
--
steve auvache
still in search of The Perfect Date.
steve auvache
2005-12-22 17:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I thought it was considered sporting in the UK to torch GATSOs and such.
More a French thing really.

A few brave souls tried it over here but after boasting about it to
their mates in the pub they discovered the hard way that many of their
mates weren't quite as friendly as they thought they were so it has more
or less petered out.
Post by Solo Rider
Some of the website pictures of GATSO destruction are pretty funny. Here in
the states, Nothing says "FUCK YOU" to a traffic camera quite like a
paintball gun.
Another very cool trick is a laser pointer (red low power). They fry early
digital camera sensors and overwhelm the newer ones. Not clear if the more
powerful green lasers will actually fry them. Useful for nosey neighbors
and messing with those who record public spaces.
I am given to understand that a Sowato Necklace is the definitive gatso
leveller.
--
steve auvache
still in search of The Perfect Date.
Solo Rider
2005-12-22 18:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve auvache
Post by Solo Rider
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I thought it was considered sporting in the UK to torch GATSOs and such.
More a French thing really.
A few brave souls tried it over here but after boasting about it to
their mates in the pub they discovered the hard way that many of their
mates weren't quite as friendly as they thought they were so it has more
or less petered out.
Post by Solo Rider
Some of the website pictures of GATSO destruction are pretty funny. Here in
the states, Nothing says "FUCK YOU" to a traffic camera quite like a
paintball gun.
Another very cool trick is a laser pointer (red low power). They fry early
digital camera sensors and overwhelm the newer ones. Not clear if the more
powerful green lasers will actually fry them. Useful for nosey neighbors
and messing with those who record public spaces.
I am given to understand that a Sowato Necklace is the definitive gatso
leveller.
In the US they are mostly red light cameras and are mounted at a height that
would make necklacing difficult. Thus its paintball time.

Recently a local liberal do gooder decided they did not like the people who
congregated at a nearby establishment that I frequent. After heated
discussion they set up a surveillance camera to "document our abuse and get
the establishment shutdown". I helped the owner hard mount an AC powered
laser. The weenie never figured out why their low light surveillance camera
never worked after 1800. Apparently spent an ungodly sum of money on it and
fiddled with it regularly during the day.
Stupendous Man
2005-12-22 23:28:35 UTC
Permalink
I have no problem with someone wrecking a speed camera, but red-light cams
are not a bad idea.
People who make a habit of running lights should be shot.

Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of reasonable Liberty
Christofire
2005-12-22 18:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Big Brother is officially here
Apologies. I can't stand the show either.
--
Christofire DIAABTCOD#1 Daytona 955i
TPPFAUICG#69BONY#10MIRTTH#7IMANASS#2SbS#20BOTAFOT#117
BOMB#15 "But..he looks so *innocent*" HYPO#2
Full throttle for 55 minutes - a hell of a buzz.
Beav
2005-12-22 20:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
I have a feeling the gubmint over here has been reading the Patriot Act.

I also have a feeling this won't slip through without a fight.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Timo Geusch
2005-12-22 22:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security
and speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them
all and create a system that will track the movements of every
vehicle, everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery
slope" - first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas,
then cameras everywhere, then a network that monitors everything.
This is insane...
I have a feeling the gubmint over here has been reading the Patriot Act.
I also have a feeling this won't slip through without a fight.
Well, it's not exactly news, it just appears that this is the first
time the mainstream press has picked it up.

AFAIR The Register discussed this in greater detail some time back.
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | R1150GSA | XL250 Motosport x2 | 900SSD
GPz 550A BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage"
Beav
2005-12-23 16:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Beav
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security
and speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them
all and create a system that will track the movements of every
vehicle, everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery
slope" - first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas,
then cameras everywhere, then a network that monitors everything.
This is insane...
I have a feeling the gubmint over here has been reading the Patriot Act.
I also have a feeling this won't slip through without a fight.
Well, it's not exactly news, it just appears that this is the first
time the mainstream press has picked it up.
It's this iedea that it's already in place and happening, that gets me.
Post by Timo Geusch
AFAIR The Register discussed this in greater detail some time back.
It's not the first time I've heard about it, not that I LIKE it mind.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Timo Geusch
2005-12-23 18:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Beav
I also have a feeling this won't slip through without a fight.
Well, it's not exactly news, it just appears that this is the first
time the mainstream press has picked it up.
It's this iedea that it's already in place and happening, that gets me.
AOL. Bit of a shit way to use all that tax money I'm paying them...
Post by Beav
Post by Timo Geusch
AFAIR The Register discussed this in greater detail some time back.
It's not the first time I've heard about it, not that I LIKE it mind.
Oh, I completely agree. I don't like it either. Someone mentioned the
"policing by consent", but stuff like this has made me wonder not
*when* but *how long ago* this was thrown out of the window by those
people who dreamt up this stuff. I'm getting the distinct impression
that they hired a couple of East German consultants after the wall came
down...
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | R1150GSA | XL250 Motosport x2 | 900SSD
GPz 550A BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage"
Beav
2005-12-24 00:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Beav
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Beav
I also have a feeling this won't slip through without a fight.
Well, it's not exactly news, it just appears that this is the first
time the mainstream press has picked it up.
It's this iedea that it's already in place and happening, that gets me.
AOL. Bit of a shit way to use all that tax money I'm paying them...
Is there ever a GOOD way they spend it?
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Beav
Post by Timo Geusch
AFAIR The Register discussed this in greater detail some time back.
It's not the first time I've heard about it, not that I LIKE it mind.
Oh, I completely agree. I don't like it either. Someone mentioned the
"policing by consent", but stuff like this has made me wonder not
*when* but *how long ago* this was thrown out of the window by those
people who dreamt up this stuff. I'm getting the distinct impression
that they hired a couple of East German consultants after the wall came
down...
It's as likely as any other possibility. I see that Plod is now called the
Police "service" rather than the force, yet they seem to be less servicable
each year. Good at nicking people for doing 35 in a 30, not wearing seal
belts and using their mobile's when they're driving. (I actually agree with
that, but still.. not exactly the crime of the century) Not so good at doing
anything really worthwhile though.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Grimly Curmudgeon
2005-12-22 23:18:44 UTC
Permalink
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Beav"
Post by Beav
I also have a feeling this won't slip through without a fight.
They'll pick a Big/Bad news day, like Thatcher's funeral[1]. Slip
through nice and slick.

[1] Is she dead yet?
--
Dave

GS850x2 XS650

On UKRM you're just a cunt with opinions.
Halla
2005-12-22 23:36:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:18:44 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
Post by Grimly Curmudgeon
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Beav"
Post by Beav
I also have a feeling this won't slip through without a fight.
They'll pick a Big/Bad news day, like Thatcher's funeral[1]. Slip
through nice and slick.
[1] Is she dead yet?
No. <glum>
Guig
2005-12-23 07:52:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:18:44 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
Post by Grimly Curmudgeon
They'll pick a Big/Bad news day, like Thatcher's funeral[1]. Slip
through nice and slick.
Believe me that won't be a bad news day, street parties are planned.
Post by Grimly Curmudgeon
[1] Is she dead yet?
Yes, but no one has told the auld zombie yet.
--
"Always look behind you when you hear the closing of the door ... look
hard and you will recognise ... I'm the Architect of War."

Grace, Pulling Strings And Shiny Things, 1994.
Beav
2005-12-23 16:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grimly Curmudgeon
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Beav"
Post by Beav
I also have a feeling this won't slip through without a fight.
They'll pick a Big/Bad news day, like Thatcher's funeral[1]. Slip
through nice and slick.
[1] Is she dead yet?
Yeah, but the lady isn't for accepting it. She's waiting for the day Mark T
gets a decent job before she closes the lid, so no holding your breath eh?
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Rob Kleinschmidt
2005-12-22 20:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
And in case you missed it, story in the N.Y. times today that
anti-war protest rallys were subject to both video surveilance
and attempts to infiltrate and incite. Along with ongoing phone
surveilance by the feds of course.

Yesiiree Bob, sure glad we don't got no Big Brother govenment here
like those poor Brits do.
Dan White
2005-12-22 23:17:16 UTC
Permalink
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
Post by Rob Kleinschmidt
And in case you missed it, story in the N.Y. times today that
anti-war protest rallys were subject to both video surveilance
and attempts to infiltrate and incite. Along with ongoing phone
surveilance by the feds of course.
Yesiiree Bob, sure glad we don't got no Big Brother govenment here
like those poor Brits do.
Sheesh, you guys are so behind the times. We've been spying on our own
people and denying it for *years*!

Until you actually *want* to see things on a camera, then they tend to be
broken, for "operational reasons"...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/02/16/central_london_webcams_go_dark/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/02/18/do_webcams_break_when_tony/
--
Dan White
(***@finex666.org.uk)
Perform an exorcism when replying.
Muck
2005-12-22 21:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
Don't the Japanese have some sort of people tracking system up and
running now?
--
Bandit 600; CG125; FZR250RR; iCar; Remove _TEETH_ to e-mail
DS#1 ; SH#2 ; SKoGA#7 ; BOMB#16 ; LotR#5 : ICQ: 166144431
"Good speech leaves no mark to be picked at." Skype: mr_muck
Beav
2005-12-22 21:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Muck
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
Don't the Japanese have some sort of people tracking system up and
running now?
Yep, and they're installing it onto all Jap bikes from next year too. All
you've got to do is sit on a Jap bike at a show and a tracker is implanted
(painlessly I'm lead to believe) and from that moment on, your speed and
location will be known to anyone with 2.50 to spend on a phone call to some
cunt at the Data Protection Centre.

Actually, isn't that the DVLA?
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Muck
2005-12-22 22:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Yep, and they're installing it onto all Jap bikes from next year too. All
you've got to do is sit on a Jap bike at a show and a tracker is implanted
(painlessly I'm lead to believe) and from that moment on, your speed and
location will be known to anyone with 2.50 to spend on a phone call to some
cunt at the Data Protection Centre.
I knew there was a reason I got these kevlar lined jeans.
Post by Beav
Actually, isn't that the DVLA?
Dunno, what's all that about then?
--
Bandit 600; CG125; FZR250RR; iCar; Remove _TEETH_ to e-mail
DS#1 ; SH#2 ; SKoGA#7 ; BOMB#16 ; LotR#5 : ICQ: 166144431
"Good speech leaves no mark to be picked at." Skype: mr_muck
Beav
2005-12-23 16:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Muck
Post by Beav
Yep, and they're installing it onto all Jap bikes from next year too. All
you've got to do is sit on a Jap bike at a show and a tracker is implanted
(painlessly I'm lead to believe) and from that moment on, your speed and
location will be known to anyone with 2.50 to spend on a phone call to some
cunt at the Data Protection Centre.
I knew there was a reason I got these kevlar lined jeans.
Post by Beav
Actually, isn't that the DVLA?
Dunno, what's all that about then?
Apparently, for a small fee, you can hand the DVLA a car reg number and get
the owners details (name addy, etc) providing you have a "jolly good reason"
which (also apparently) isn't actually checked up on.

Or you can phone 'em up and do the same thing.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Muck
2005-12-23 18:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Muck
Dunno, what's all that about then?
Apparently, for a small fee, you can hand the DVLA a car reg number and get
the owners details (name addy, etc) providing you have a "jolly good reason"
which (also apparently) isn't actually checked up on.
Or you can phone 'em up and do the same thing.
Ahhh.. that's interesting. I hope nobody reported me for the smoke
screen I left on the A27 today with my FZR. No it hasn't blown up yet, I
got a second hand pipe off one with a blown engine and it had some oil
left in it. :o))
--
Bandit 600; CG125; FZR250RR; iCar; Remove _TEETH_ to e-mail
DS#1 ; SH#2 ; SKoGA#7 ; BOMB#16 ; LotR#5 : ICQ: 166144431
"Good speech leaves no mark to be picked at." Skype: mr_muck
The Older Gentleman
2005-12-22 22:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Muck
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
Don't the Japanese have some sort of people tracking system up and
running now?
Yes, but it doesn't work with round-eyes because we all look alike to
them.
--
Trophy 1200 750SS XS650 CB400F CB125S DT50MX
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
Greek Shipping Magnets
2005-12-23 16:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
Well, at least slowly you're beginning to come to grips with the
downsides of socialism and powerful government authorities being set
up in the "interests of the people" (whatever the fuck that means!).
Beav
2005-12-24 00:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greek Shipping Magnets
Post by l***@hotmail.com
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article334686.ece
Big Brother is officially here - as if their thousands of security and
speed cameras weren't enough, now they're planning to link them all and
create a system that will track the movements of every vehicle,
everywhere, all the time. Perfect example of the "slippery slope" -
first speed cameras, then cameras in high-crime areas, then cameras
everywhere, then a network that monitors everything. This is insane...
Well, at least slowly you're beginning to come to grips with the
downsides of socialism and powerful government authorities being set
up in the "interests of the people" (whatever the fuck that means!).
Before you go off on one about our system, check out your own. Begin with
the Patriot Act, then move on to "Patriot II", then get back to us to tell
us of your wonderfully free and easy plod free existance.
--
Beav
OMF#19
VN 750
Zed Thou

mail is beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com (with the obvious changes)
Justin
2005-12-24 10:39:05 UTC
Permalink
: "Greek Shipping Magnets" <***@x.x> wrote in message

: > Well, at least slowly you're beginning to come to grips with the
: > downsides of socialism and powerful government authorities being set
: > up in the "interests of the people" (whatever the fuck that means!).

In rec.motorcycles Beav <***@ntlwoxoorld.com> wrote:

: Before you go off on one about our system, check out your own. Begin with
: the Patriot Act, then move on to "Patriot II", then get back to us to tell
: us of your wonderfully free and easy plod free existance.

There is a significant difference here. The Patriot Act is something
that stirs much debate and that has to be renewed. I'm not denying that
it's largely a piece-of-crap legislation which tramples all over our
civil liberties, just that the citizenry isn't taking it lying down.

Over in the UK though it seems people just sort of whimper a bit every
time a new camera goes up or something else gets monitored (can you say
TV license?), and then they go quiet very quickly and take out the
vaseline.

Justin
'02 Shadow VT750DC

ps. I spent my childhood in England, have many relatives there and spend
about a month of each year there, so I do have some idea what the general
consensus seems to be.
Dan White
2005-12-24 12:34:09 UTC
Permalink
"Justin" <***@spam.com> wrote in message news:doj8g9$6tk$***@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
<snip>
Post by Justin
Over in the UK though it seems people just sort of whimper a bit every
time a new camera goes up or something else gets monitored (can you say
TV license?), and then they go quiet very quickly and take out the
vaseline.
Can you say, "no adverts"? None, no advertising breaks *at all*. Can you
even comprehend of an hour long show *actually* being an hour long? No five
minute break for commercials three minutes into the programme. Plus several
national radio stations with no commercial breaks, one of the best
independent news services in the world[1]

Much as I can't stand the pervading "Nanny knows best" attitude of our
Government, when it comes to the TV licence I think you are just flat out
wrong.

[1] You can tell when a broadcaster is actually getting the "impartial" bit
right when *both* main political parties accuse it of bias...
--
Dan White
(***@finex666.org.uk)
Perform an exorcism when replying.
Justin
2005-12-24 13:05:42 UTC
Permalink
In rec.motorcycles Dan White <***@privacy.net> wrote:

: Can you say, "no adverts"? None, no advertising breaks *at all*. Can you
: even comprehend of an hour long show *actually* being an hour long? No five
: minute break for commercials three minutes into the programme.

Yes, as I mentioned, I spend a fair bit of time in England. You're
missing the point, that Auntie Beeb actually drives around and scans your
houses to make sure that your license is up-to-date. Talk about
Orwellian.

To top it off, consider this: Even if you don't watch the BBC you still
can't have that TV without paying the license. So you buy your TV and
plonk it in your sitting room, connect it to SkyTV and the goverment
STILL comes around, aims all their bloody antennae at you and makes you
fork over money.

: Plus several national radio stations with no commercial breaks,

It's hard to have a national radio station in the US, but NPR comes
close, slightly liberal bias notwithstanding.

Justin
Bear
2005-12-24 13:07:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:05:42 +0000 (UTC), Justin said ...
Post by Justin
: Can you say, "no adverts"? None, no advertising breaks *at all*. Can you
: even comprehend of an hour long show *actually* being an hour long? No five
: minute break for commercials three minutes into the programme.
Yes, as I mentioned, I spend a fair bit of time in England. You're
missing the point, that Auntie Beeb actually drives around and scans your
houses to make sure that your license is up-to-date.
No they don't.
--
Bear
BMW 740iL - Stately Progress For The Mature Gentleman
Andy Bonwick
2005-12-24 13:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin
: Can you say, "no adverts"? None, no advertising breaks *at all*. Can you
: even comprehend of an hour long show *actually* being an hour long? No five
: minute break for commercials three minutes into the programme.
Yes, as I mentioned, I spend a fair bit of time in England. You're
missing the point, that Auntie Beeb actually drives around and scans your
houses to make sure that your license is up-to-date. Talk about
Orwellian.
They don't drive around scanning houses looking for licence dodgers,
they look at their database to see which houses don't have a licence,
then they write to the house asking if they have a tv and if so please
purchase a licence. If the resident denies having a tv or fails to
respond then they go and scan to see if there's a tv being watched.
There's probably another letter or two involved in the process but
certainly no random scanning of houses.

Not very Orwellian if you ask me.
Bear
2005-12-24 13:15:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:12:34 +0000, Andy Bonwick said ...
Post by Andy Bonwick
Post by Justin
: Can you say, "no adverts"? None, no advertising breaks *at all*. Can you
: even comprehend of an hour long show *actually* being an hour long? No five
: minute break for commercials three minutes into the programme.
Yes, as I mentioned, I spend a fair bit of time in England. You're
missing the point, that Auntie Beeb actually drives around and scans your
houses to make sure that your license is up-to-date. Talk about
Orwellian.
They don't drive around scanning houses looking for licence dodgers,
they look at their database to see which houses don't have a licence,
then they write to the house asking if they have a tv and if so please
purchase a licence. If the resident denies having a tv or fails to
respond then they go and scan to see if there's a tv being watched.
They don't "scan". They knock at the door and say "have you got a TV?".
Bizarre, but there you are.
Post by Andy Bonwick
Not very Orwellian if you ask me.
Indeed not.
--
Bear
BMW 740iL - Stately Progress For The Mature Gentleman
Justin
2005-12-25 13:53:56 UTC
Permalink
In rec.motorcycles Andy Bonwick <***@bonwick.me.uk> wrote:

: They don't drive around scanning houses looking for licence dodgers,
: they look at their database to see which houses don't have a licence,
: then they write to the house asking if they have a tv and if so please
: purchase a licence. If the resident denies having a tv or fails to
: respond then they go and scan to see if there's a tv being watched.
: There's probably another letter or two involved in the process but
: certainly no random scanning of houses.

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Clearly I am a little out-of-date with
regard to this. Still bugs me up the wall, though. =)

Justin
Solo Rider
2005-12-24 17:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin
: Can you say, "no adverts"? None, no advertising breaks *at all*. Can you
: even comprehend of an hour long show *actually* being an hour long? No five
: minute break for commercials three minutes into the programme.
Yes, as I mentioned, I spend a fair bit of time in England. You're
missing the point, that Auntie Beeb actually drives around and scans your
houses to make sure that your license is up-to-date. Talk about
Orwellian.
To top it off, consider this: Even if you don't watch the BBC you still
can't have that TV without paying the license. So you buy your TV and
plonk it in your sitting room, connect it to SkyTV and the goverment
STILL comes around, aims all their bloody antennae at you and makes you
fork over money.
: Plus several national radio stations with no commercial breaks,
It's hard to have a national radio station in the US, but NPR comes
close, slightly liberal bias notwithstanding.
slight? Oh, I get it, sarcasm....
David Steuber
2005-12-26 05:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Before you go off on one about our system, check out your own. Begin with
the Patriot Act, then move on to "Patriot II", then get back to us to tell
us of your wonderfully free and easy plod free existance.
Bleh! Democracy sucks plain and simple. We would probably be better
off with a Sith Lord in charge ;-)

The real problem is that the people have forgotten the lessons of
history. The U.S. Republic was set up to limit the power of
government for a darn good reason. Now people are giving away liberty
in exchange for the false promise of security. I'm sure everyone
knows what Ben Franklin had to say about that.
--
http://www.david-steuber.com/
The UnBlog: An island of conformity in a sea of quirks.
http://www.david-steuber.com/snippets/Boycott_Sony/
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...