Discussion:
OT: Jobs what pay well
(too old to reply)
Doki
2008-08-22 12:05:45 UTC
Permalink
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never have. So
I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in a different
sector.

I've got a first class degree, which mainly covered ecology and landscape
stuff (ie restoration, LCA etc.), but I'm halfway inclined to say fuck the
lot and go and do something like management or IT where you can be shoved
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the prospect of
the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it). Whatever I do, it's
got to be something where I do less than 60 hours a week, so I suspect that
rules out most large IT consultancies and banks. I don't especially object
to occasional night work but anything that requires regular night or
unsociable hours doesn't interest me - same goes for being packed off to
India for weeks at a time to get offshore bods up to speed. Going to London
is also something I'd like to avoid, but I'm within commuting distance of
Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.

Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills, but
I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more through a lack of GAF
rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick up technical info fairly
quickly. Would I be best looking at going doing further training myself (or
finding an employer who'll train me) or working my way up from the bottom?
What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
Vass
2008-08-22 12:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills,
but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more through a lack
of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick up technical info
fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going doing further training
myself (or finding an employer who'll train me) or working my way up from
the bottom? What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum we'd take
hth
--
Vass
Doki
2008-08-22 13:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills,
but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more through a lack
of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick up technical info
fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going doing further training
myself (or finding an employer who'll train me) or working my way up from
the bottom? What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum we'd take
hth
Hmm. Prices seem to vary between £500ish and £3kish. I assume £500 is
basically you learn it, they provide you with somewhere to take the exam...
OTOH the pay looks fucking good.
Cane
2008-08-22 13:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills,
but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more through a lack
of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick up technical info
fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going doing further training
myself (or finding an employer who'll train me) or working my way up from
the bottom? What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum we'd take
hth
Hmm. Prices seem to vary between £500ish and £3kish. I assume £500 is
basically you learn it, they provide you with somewhere to take the exam...
OTOH the pay looks fucking good.
Is it difficult?
Doki
2008-08-22 14:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can
pick up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at
going doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll
train me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of
the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum
we'd take hth
Hmm. Prices seem to vary between £500ish and £3kish. I assume £500 is
basically you learn it, they provide you with somewhere to take the
exam... OTOH the pay looks fucking good.
Is it difficult?
How would I know? I suspect it's not difficult, given that people appear to
be able to learn it on a 10 day course.
Doki
2008-08-22 14:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can
pick up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at
going doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll
train me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of
the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum
we'd take hth
Hmm. Prices seem to vary between £500ish and £3kish. I assume £500
is basically you learn it, they provide you with somewhere to take
the exam... OTOH the pay looks fucking good.
Is it difficult?
How would I know? I suspect it's not difficult, given that people
appear to be able to learn it on a 10 day course.
Kinhell!!! I've just read the course contents for MSCE. I'd say a good 70%
of it, your average clued up computer owner will have at some point
encountered, and could manage to make work. The other 30% doesn't sound
especially hard.
Whinging Courier
2008-08-22 15:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can
pick up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at
going doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll
train me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of
the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum
we'd take hth
Hmm. Prices seem to vary between £500ish and £3kish. I assume £500 is
basically you learn it, they provide you with somewhere to take the
exam... OTOH the pay looks fucking good.
Is it difficult?
How would I know? I suspect it's not difficult, given that people appear to
be able to learn it on a 10 day course.
I've done it, I also did CCNA.

'Course, the college I did it at went tits up when it came to doing my
first exam and lost the bloody lot (of money) I put in so I'd say do a
good bit of research on the place you do choose to do it with, if that's
the path you choose.

Good luck, whatever you do.
--
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BOMB#14 ibW#40 LotR#0 (RIP) BOTAFOT#157 BotM#3
Ben
2008-08-22 19:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can
pick up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at
going doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll
train me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of
the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum
we'd take hth
Hmm. Prices seem to vary between £500ish and £3kish. I assume £500 is
basically you learn it, they provide you with somewhere to take the
exam... OTOH the pay looks fucking good.
Is it difficult?
How would I know? I suspect it's not difficult, given that people appear to
be able to learn it on a 10 day course.
That should give you an idea of what it's actually worth.

We like people to have an applicable degree and some applicable
industry qualifications[1], but if they can prove their knowledge
another way (usual by means of us quizzing them or asking for a
presentation as appropriate) then we use that.



[1] We're currently after someone who can do WebSphere Portal 6
infrastructure consultancy, a Solution Architect who knows the
WebSphere portfolio and some developers from a J2EE background who
ideally have WebSphere App Server and Portal Server experience. Base
location Worcester but with nationwide travel and working onsite for
clients. My company is a very well known IBM business partner.
Salary's range between 1.5x Doki's amount and 3x it depending on
experience.
--
GSX-R1000K8
mike. buckley
2008-08-22 20:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
[1] We're currently after someone who can do WebSphere Portal 6
infrastructure consultancy, a Solution Architect who knows the
WebSphere portfolio and some developers from a J2EE background who
ideally have WebSphere App Server and Portal Server experience. Base
location Worcester but with nationwide travel and working onsite for
clients. My company is a very well known IBM business partner.
Salary's range between 1.5x Doki's amount and 3x it depending on
experience.
Given your proximity to IBM Warwick[1] the only reason you won't fill
that Websphere job is on salary.

Sure you don't want any Security peeps? :-)


[1] And Accenture, and AT&T etc.
--
Mike Buckley
RD350LC2
http://www.toastyhamster.plus.com
BONY#38
Ben
2008-08-23 08:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike. buckley
Post by Ben
[1] We're currently after someone who can do WebSphere Portal 6
infrastructure consultancy, a Solution Architect who knows the
WebSphere portfolio and some developers from a J2EE background who
ideally have WebSphere App Server and Portal Server experience. Base
location Worcester but with nationwide travel and working onsite for
clients. My company is a very well known IBM business partner.
Salary's range between 1.5x Doki's amount and 3x it depending on
experience.
Given your proximity to IBM Warwick[1] the only reason you won't fill
that Websphere job is on salary.
I'd be surprised if IBM really were paying much more than us. Our
working conditions are certainly better than IBM's though.

Oh, and it's 4 jobs, not one, and they're all WebSphere related in
some way.
Post by mike. buckley
Sure you don't want any Security peeps? :-)
Unfortunately not. We specialise in WebSphere...

http://www.openlogic.co.uk
--
GSX-R1000K8
Catman
2008-08-22 14:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills,
but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more through a lack
of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick up technical info
fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going doing further training
myself (or finding an employer who'll train me) or working my way up from
the bottom? What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum we'd take
hth
Hmm. Prices seem to vary between £500ish and £3kish. I assume £500 is
basically you learn it, they provide you with somewhere to take the exam...
OTOH the pay looks fucking good.
Is it difficult?
I suspect it's difficult to be *good* at it. Actually doing the course
isn't that hard.
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
Chris Bartram
2008-08-22 15:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick
up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going
doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll train
me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of the month
qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum we'd take
hth
Hmm. Prices seem to vary between £500ish and £3kish. I assume £500 is
basically you learn it, they provide you with somewhere to take the
exam... OTOH the pay looks fucking good.
I'm always suspicious of a an MCSE unless there's some proven experience
too. There's a knack to it: answering questions how MS expect then answered.

If you have relevant skills and experience an MCSE looks good on the CV.
Personally I'd say a cisco qualification has more potential- CCNE etc.
Catman
2008-08-22 14:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vass
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills,
but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more through a lack
of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick up technical info
fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going doing further training
myself (or finding an employer who'll train me) or working my way up from
the bottom? What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum we'd take
hth
And that really would be a minimum ;)
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
2008-08-22 17:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vass
MCSE (microsoft certified systems engineer) is the bear minimum we'd take
hth
ITYM Must Consult Someone Experienced
Cane
2008-08-22 13:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the prospect of
the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it).
Fuck me son, how old are you?
Doki
2008-08-22 13:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the
prospect of the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it).
Fuck me son, how old are you?
24, but I've spent a few years fucking about before knuckling down and
getting a degree done. The IT lads think they've got it bad being undercut
by Indians. In environmental work you're undercut by the volunteers who are
pleased to be doing it for free.
Cane
2008-08-22 13:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the
prospect of the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it).
Fuck me son, how old are you?
24, but I've spent a few years fucking about before knuckling down and
getting a degree done. The IT lads think they've got it bad being undercut
by Indians. In environmental work you're undercut by the volunteers who are
pleased to be doing it for free.
Surely you would aim to start higher than £20k, is it that tough out
there?
Vass
2008-08-22 13:35:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the
prospect of the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it).
Fuck me son, how old are you?
24, but I've spent a few years fucking about before knuckling down and
getting a degree done. The IT lads think they've got it bad being undercut
by Indians. In environmental work you're undercut by the volunteers who are
pleased to be doing it for free.
Surely you would aim to start higher than £20k, is it that tough out
there?
Start here on £ 28k with VW Golf GTI + Fuel (Surrey)
but higher for more qualifications obviously.
--
Vass
Doki
2008-08-22 13:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vass
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the
prospect of the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it).
Fuck me son, how old are you?
24, but I've spent a few years fucking about before knuckling down
and getting a degree done. The IT lads think they've got it bad
being undercut
by Indians. In environmental work you're undercut by the volunteers who are
pleased to be doing it for free.
Surely you would aim to start higher than £20k, is it that tough out
there?
Start here on £ 28k with VW Golf GTI + Fuel (Surrey)
but higher for more qualifications obviously.
Crikey. In my current field of work, that sort of money + perks is 7-10
years down the line and if you're a good boy with an MSc stuff.
Doki
2008-08-22 13:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the
prospect of the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it).
Fuck me son, how old are you?
24, but I've spent a few years fucking about before knuckling down
and getting a degree done. The IT lads think they've got it bad
being undercut by Indians. In environmental work you're undercut by
the volunteers who are pleased to be doing it for free.
Surely you would aim to start higher than £20k, is it that tough out
there?
£20k would be a decent payrise from where I am now, but obviously more is
better. Anything over £20k would remove a lot of stress over not having any
cash, never being able to afford a house, leisure etc. which would be nice.

TBH I've not done a great deal of browsing the job ads and a hell of a lot
say "Salary: £Competitive" which is a bit hard to gauge when you're not in
that particular business. Basically I've no idea of the going rate, but I
remember a mate being on £20k for his placement year at Accenture in London
a few years back so I suspect it may be around the mark for what Londoners
probably consider to be the frozen North... I also suspect lot of grad
schemes pay around £20k for the first year.
BGN
2008-08-22 17:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
Post by Cane
Post by Doki
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the
prospect of the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it).
Fuck me son, how old are you?
24, but I've spent a few years fucking about before knuckling down
and getting a degree done. The IT lads think they've got it bad
being undercut by Indians. In environmental work you're undercut by
the volunteers who are pleased to be doing it for free.
Surely you would aim to start higher than £20k, is it that tough out
there?
£20k would be a decent payrise from where I am now, but obviously more is
better. Anything over £20k would remove a lot of stress over not having any
cash, never being able to afford a house, leisure etc. which would be nice.
TBH I've not done a great deal of browsing the job ads and a hell of a lot
say "Salary: £Competitive" which is a bit hard to gauge when you're not in
that particular business. Basically I've no idea of the going rate, but I
remember a mate being on £20k for his placement year at Accenture in London
a few years back so I suspect it may be around the mark for what Londoners
probably consider to be the frozen North... I also suspect lot of grad
schemes pay around £20k for the first year.
Where I work they pay £20k to the person who moderates the public
forum who has no IT qualifications.
--
-- Nick ICQ: 9235201 EMAIL & MSN: ***@spamcop.net
-- Triumph Tiger 955i -- http://www.bgn.me.uk - Touché -
-- LOTR#4 SKOGA#8 DS#7 BOTAFOT#159 BOTM#2 FBOTY#06 PM#11
Tim
2008-08-22 12:58:27 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@mid.individual.net>, Doki <***@gmail.com>
writes
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
[snip]
Post by Doki
bottom? What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
Being an Indian[1] and living in India if my place is anything to go by.

[1] Excepting the new site in China for which a number of jobs here and
in the USA were sacrificed.
--
Tim
http://www.pitfieldbeershop.co.uk/
platypus
2008-08-22 13:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick
up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going
doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll train
me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of the month
qualification wise?
If you naturally have a pure, geeky love of technology for its own sake,
then IT is the way to go. If you can't be arsed with the fortnightly skills
refresh, do management. If you like telling people what to do but don't
want to have responsibility for them, can understand information presented
in diagrammatic form, are immune to stress and don't mind wasting you life
in meetings and conference calls, there's always that last refuge of the
scoundrel, project management.
Doki
2008-08-22 13:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by platypus
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick
up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going
doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll train
me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of the month
qualification wise?
If you naturally have a pure, geeky love of technology for its own
sake, then IT is the way to go. If you can't be arsed with the
fortnightly skills refresh, do management.
Hmm. I like technology and engineering, and used to be very interested in
computers and the like. Nowadays I still like to see a neat solution to a
problem or a spangly new technology but I'm not so much interested in this
week's new graphics card. OTOH I could cope with being mildly bored for the
right money, and so long as I get something challenging to do.
Post by platypus
If you like telling
people what to do but don't want to have responsibility for them, can
understand information presented in diagrammatic form, are immune to
stress and don't mind wasting you life in meetings and conference
calls, there's always that last refuge of the scoundrel, project
management.
I'd rather not, ta.
Catman
2008-08-22 14:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by platypus
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick
up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going
doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll train
me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of the month
qualification wise?
If you naturally have a pure, geeky love of technology for its own
sake, then IT is the way to go. If you can't be arsed with the
fortnightly skills refresh, do management.
Hmm. I like technology and engineering, and used to be very interested
in computers and the like. Nowadays I still like to see a neat solution
to a problem or a spangly new technology but I'm not so much interested
in this week's new graphics card. OTOH I could cope with being mildly
bored for the right money, and so long as I get something challenging to
do.
You could do what I did. Start at front line customer service and learn
/ teach yourself up. Takes a while, but I have a far greater breadth of
skills than the specialists. That's not neccessarily a good thing. My
skill set is such that I am rather useful where I am (you can be quiet
as well Mr. Wilson) but without making the next step, they are not
immediately perceived as transferable.

If you are interested, I just happen to be (probably) hiring. Feel free
to drop me a mail: chris at system labs dot co dot uk

Not hiring for Systemlabs BTW.
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
BGN
2008-08-22 17:54:56 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:53:52 GMT, Catman
Post by Catman
You could do what I did. Start at front line customer service and learn
/ teach yourself up. Takes a while, but I have a far greater breadth of
skills than the specialists. That's not neccessarily a good thing. My
skill set is such that I am rather useful where I am (you can be quiet
as well Mr. Wilson) but without making the next step, they are not
immediately perceived as transferable.
This is what I like when someone applied for a job in my department.
It shows me that they know what we do. I'm quite happy to nab people
from the Sales department if they know how to use the systems and the
company processes, that way when they're testing an enhancement they
know what's changed and how to work out if it's correct or worthwhile.
--
-- Nick ICQ: 9235201 EMAIL & MSN: ***@spamcop.net
-- Triumph Tiger 955i -- http://www.bgn.me.uk - Touché -
-- LOTR#4 SKOGA#8 DS#7 BOTAFOT#159 BOTM#2 FBOTY#06 PM#11
Catman
2008-08-22 18:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by BGN
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:53:52 GMT, Catman
Post by Catman
You could do what I did. Start at front line customer service and learn
/ teach yourself up. Takes a while, but I have a far greater breadth of
skills than the specialists. That's not neccessarily a good thing. My
skill set is such that I am rather useful where I am (you can be quiet
as well Mr. Wilson) but without making the next step, they are not
immediately perceived as transferable.
This is what I like when someone applied for a job in my department.
It shows me that they know what we do. I'm quite happy to nab people
from the Sales department if they know how to use the systems and the
company processes, that way when they're testing an enhancement they
know what's changed and how to work out if it's correct or worthwhile.
My CS experience was some time ago now, but I still take guys from the
CD team to put into my NOC.
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
Elly
2008-08-22 14:55:06 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:17:22 GMT, "platypus"
Post by platypus
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick
up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going
doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll train
me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of the month
qualification wise?
If you naturally have a pure, geeky love of technology for its own sake,
then IT is the way to go. If you can't be arsed with the fortnightly skills
refresh, do management. If you like telling people what to do but don't
want to have responsibility for them, can understand information presented
in diagrammatic form, are immune to stress and don't mind wasting you life
in meetings and conference calls, there's always that last refuge of the
scoundrel, project management.
<waves> ... and the site visits, the feeling that you're actually
doing something that's going to benefit your local environment, oh and
the money!
--
Elly - A PM Pixie
ZX9R-E1 - <Giggles>
Spike - FZ400 - It's dead Jim!
MRO#32 ibW#25 BoTAFOT#46 BoTAFOF #46 GP#1 UKRMRM#00 TWA#3
DFV#15
http://www.garagepixies.co.uk
elly at garagepixies dot co dot uk
Doki
2008-08-22 15:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elly
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:17:22 GMT, "platypus"
Post by platypus
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick
up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going
doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll train
me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of the
month qualification wise?
If you naturally have a pure, geeky love of technology for its own
sake, then IT is the way to go. If you can't be arsed with the
fortnightly skills refresh, do management. If you like telling
people what to do but don't want to have responsibility for them,
can understand information presented in diagrammatic form, are
immune to stress and don't mind wasting you life in meetings and
conference calls, there's always that last refuge of the scoundrel,
project management.
<waves> ... and the site visits, the feeling that you're actually
doing something that's going to benefit your local environment, oh and
the money!
The feeling that you create elaborate ways of getting a developer through
the regulatory hoops so that they can tarmac over nice places in my case ;).
Elly
2008-08-22 15:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Elly
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:17:22 GMT, "platypus"
Post by platypus
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick
up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going
doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll train
me) or working my way up from the bottom? What's flavour of the
month qualification wise?
If you naturally have a pure, geeky love of technology for its own
sake, then IT is the way to go. If you can't be arsed with the
fortnightly skills refresh, do management. If you like telling
people what to do but don't want to have responsibility for them,
can understand information presented in diagrammatic form, are
immune to stress and don't mind wasting you life in meetings and
conference calls, there's always that last refuge of the scoundrel,
project management.
<waves> ... and the site visits, the feeling that you're actually
doing something that's going to benefit your local environment, oh and
the money!
The feeling that you create elaborate ways of getting a developer through
the regulatory hoops so that they can tarmac over nice places in my case ;).
That's just what this project's not trying to do ... we're working
with communities to identify the green space/infrastructure projects
that they want and helping them to achieve them.
--
Elly - A contended Pixie
ZX9R-E1 - <Giggles>
Spike - FZ400 - It's dead Jim!
MRO#32 ibW#25 BoTAFOT#46 BoTAFOF #46 GP#1 UKRMRM#00 TWA#3
DFV#15
http://www.garagepixies.co.uk
elly at garagepixies dot co dot uk
Anonymouslemming
2008-08-22 13:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills, but
I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more through a lack of GAF
rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick up technical info fairly
quickly. Would I be best looking at going doing further training myself (or
finding an employer who'll train me) or working my way up from the bottom?
What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
RHCE or CCNE would be a very good start as these aren't quite as
common as MCSEs in the market place. You can forget about finding an
employer to train you up if you don't have some seriously desirable
skills to bring to the table these days.

If you object to unsociable hours on a regular basis, your only real
option is a big company. When I doubled my salary, I halved my monthly
hours. Every single small to medium sized company I've ever worked for
required far longer hours than the banks do, has paid less and has had
fewer career opportunities.

Personally, I'd say stay out of IT if you're looking for a long term
career and your primary focus is income. Job security is non-existant,
teams are consistently getting smaller as automation and management
tools are better understood and most development jobs can be sent
anywhere in the world with increasing levels of success.

You'd be better off finding a career where progression to being your
own boss is more likely, and you don't have to retrain every few
months / years. Pretty much all of your retraining in IT has to happen
on your own time and at your own cost, so you can kiss a lot of your
free time goodbye - evenings, weekends, etc.

I really love my current job and the direction my career is going in
for the moment, but then, I like the science side of the work and the
distributed number crunching is interesting to me. Even so, I still
don't see this as a career that I can stay in for more than another
8-10 years. I've got to make management or find a whole new career.

--
Wayne
Doki
2008-08-22 13:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymouslemming
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational
skills, but I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more
through a lack of GAF rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick
up technical info fairly quickly. Would I be best looking at going
doing further training myself (or finding an employer who'll train
me) or working my way up from the bottom?
What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
RHCE or CCNE would be a very good start as these aren't quite as
common as MCSEs in the market place.
I have a deep rooted hatred of Redhat since I first installed Debian. Still,
if there's money in it.
Post by Anonymouslemming
You can forget about finding an
employer to train you up if you don't have some seriously desirable
skills to bring to the table these days.
If you object to unsociable hours on a regular basis, your only real
option is a big company. When I doubled my salary, I halved my monthly
hours. Every single small to medium sized company I've ever worked for
required far longer hours than the banks do, has paid less and has had
fewer career opportunities.
Righto. A mate and I were talking about small-medium sized firms and how
they almost always seem to be managed badly. It seems like people are either
getting away with doing fuck all or working silly hours because the
management aren't managing, and everythings done the same way as it was 10
years ago.
Post by Anonymouslemming
Personally, I'd say stay out of IT if you're looking for a long term
career and your primary focus is income. Job security is non-existant,
teams are consistently getting smaller as automation and management
tools are better understood and most development jobs can be sent
anywhere in the world with increasing levels of success.
Righto. Actually, someone lend me £32K to buy 20 Anabats, and I'll get some
Indians doing sound analysis for me...
Post by Anonymouslemming
You'd be better off finding a career where progression to being your
own boss is more likely, and you don't have to retrain every few
months / years. Pretty much all of your retraining in IT has to happen
on your own time and at your own cost, so you can kiss a lot of your
free time goodbye - evenings, weekends, etc.
Sounds wank.
Post by Anonymouslemming
I really love my current job and the direction my career is going in
for the moment, but then, I like the science side of the work and the
distributed number crunching is interesting to me. Even so, I still
don't see this as a career that I can stay in for more than another
8-10 years. I've got to make management or find a whole new career.
Hmm. I suppose the best way to get into management is via one of these
management grad schemes then.
Krusty
2008-08-22 13:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at
the way that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may
never have. So I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next
year in a different sector.
I've got a first class degree, which mainly covered ecology and
landscape stuff (ie restoration, LCA etc.), but I'm halfway inclined
to say fuck the lot and go and do something like management or IT
where you can be shoved into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish
(ie, £20k with the prospect of the wages going up appreciably if
you're good at it).
Go away & learn Oracle (PL/SQL programming), XML & SOAP, then come back
in 6 months & I might give you a job in Brum on investment management
software. Or I might not, in which case somebody else probably will, if
you're good at 'crafting' a CV & bullshitting.
--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tiger 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250
Doki
2008-08-22 13:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Krusty
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at
the way that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may
never have. So I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next
year in a different sector.
I've got a first class degree, which mainly covered ecology and
landscape stuff (ie restoration, LCA etc.), but I'm halfway inclined
to say fuck the lot and go and do something like management or IT
where you can be shoved into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish
(ie, £20k with the prospect of the wages going up appreciably if
you're good at it).
Go away & learn Oracle (PL/SQL programming), XML & SOAP, then come
back in 6 months & I might give you a job in Brum on investment
management software. Or I might not, in which case somebody else
probably will, if you're good at 'crafting' a CV & bullshitting.
That sounds alright apart from the Birmingham bit...
Krusty
2008-08-22 13:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Krusty
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your
ears, particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and
looking at the way that salaries are in my sector (environment /
ecology), I may never have. So I'm considering getting into a
grad scheme for next year in a different sector.
Go away & learn Oracle (PL/SQL programming), XML & SOAP, then come
back in 6 months & I might give you a job in Brum on investment
management software. Or I might not, in which case somebody else
probably will, if you're good at 'crafting' a CV & bullshitting.
That sounds alright apart from the Birmingham bit...
Hence the reason I work from home.
--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tiger 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250
Lady Nina
2008-08-22 14:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
Seeing as I seem to have kicked this one off can I point out I was
skint for *years* and I still don't earn much above the national
average in the day job, I'm just very discerning about how I spend my
money.
Post by Doki
particularly if you're doing IT contracting.
I'm not.
Post by Doki
I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never have. So
I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in a different
sector.
If you love your sector why not look at ways to progress within it? I
truly love what I do, though every now and again I get the urge to
pack it all in and go and work in a day nursery on minimum wage.
Post by Doki
I've got a first class degree, which mainly covered ecology and landscape
stuff (ie restoration, LCA etc.), but I'm halfway inclined to say fuck the
lot
Why? Is it just about the money? How do you define success?
Post by Doki
Going to London
is also something I'd like to avoid, but I'm within commuting distance of
Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.
My ex husband works in IT in London and has a company flat Mon-Fri,
he's been looking for work back here so he can see more of the kids
and it simply isn't available at a comparable income. Mind you for
starting level IT there's Capital One in Nottingham, I imagine even as
a drone you'd be on more than the 20k you indicated in the bit I've
snipped.
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills,
It shows you can do the work.
--
Lady Nina
Doki
2008-08-22 15:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
Seeing as I seem to have kicked this one off can I point out I was
skint for *years* and I still don't earn much above the national
average in the day job, I'm just very discerning about how I spend my
money.
Nah, it wasn't you. It was the bods who are earning a fair amount of cash
doing contracting and the like, both people here and offline. That and the
nouveau riche morons I keep seeing about the place in flash cars with the
maker's tags still stitched to the cuffs of their suits. If they can make
lots of money, I should be able to make more.
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
particularly if you're doing IT contracting.
I'm not.
Post by Doki
I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never
have. So I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in
a different sector.
If you love your sector why not look at ways to progress within it? I
truly love what I do, though every now and again I get the urge to
pack it all in and go and work in a day nursery on minimum wage.
Basically, I'm in consultancy. Ask near enough anyone about how to make
money in the sector, and they'll tell you to go into consultancy. There's
still no money in that. My encounters with the voluntary / charitable sector
has been that they don't know their arse from their elbow, and so working
with them would be incredibly frustrating, and I'm not over interested in
going to work for the Govt.
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
I've got a first class degree, which mainly covered ecology and
landscape stuff (ie restoration, LCA etc.), but I'm halfway inclined
to say fuck the lot
Why? Is it just about the money?
It's not so much wanting to have money than not wanting to be short of it.
Post by Lady Nina
How do you define success?
Enough money and free time to indulge my hobbies of fucking around with old
cars, riding mountain bikes and going to see the occasional gig, and put
away some pension provision, and should I eventually come to have kids,
enough cash that my bird doesn't need to work full time and shove the kids
in daycare, and enough cash stashed away that I can tell my boss to stick
their job, or bugger off on holiday for 6 months should I feel the need. A
decent detached house in a leafy suburb so I don't need to worry about the
neighbours complaining about my music being on too loud. Little enough work
that I can actually get some sleep, not feel like my head is full of root
vegetables instead of brains and not walk around being a snappy bastard
because I'm exhausted.

ATM I can see that my forseeable future will be a struggle to afford what I
consider to be the basics (ie, decent flat, a car, food, heat and light and
a night out a week), and struggling to put anything away for a deposit on a
house. I've no desire to continue my student days where a big gas bill is a
major problem, and holidays are something other people have.
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
Going to London
is also something I'd like to avoid, but I'm within commuting
distance of Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.
My ex husband works in IT in London and has a company flat Mon-Fri,
he's been looking for work back here so he can see more of the kids
and it simply isn't available at a comparable income. Mind you for
starting level IT there's Capital One in Nottingham, I imagine even as
a drone you'd be on more than the 20k you indicated in the bit I've
snipped.
I've got mates who work in London. As far as I can see the going rate is
often stupendous, but often so are the hours. It'd take a lot to get me into
any big city to be honest. Leeds, Brum or Manc are all fucking holes as far
as I'm concerned, and I couldn't be doing with the hassle required to get
somewhere green. OTOH smaller cities like Nottingham and Sheffield are far
more civilised, and it's a practical proposition to live relatively close to
the centre of town and commute to work by pushbike, rather than sitting in
traffic getting pissed off in the car.
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills,
It shows you can do the work.
There is that.
Timo Geusch
2008-08-23 05:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
Seeing as I seem to have kicked this one off can I point out I was
skint for *years* and I still don't earn much above the national
average in the day job, I'm just very discerning about how I spend my
money.
Nah, it wasn't you. It was the bods who are earning a fair amount of
cash doing contracting and the like, both people here and
offline.
Well, I guess I am one of those people you are referring to. Keep in
mind however that I've been doing this for nigh on twenty years and only
got up to the reasonable middle class income level a few years ago.
Post by Doki
That and the nouveau riche morons I keep seeing about the
place in flash cars with the maker's tags still stitched to the cuffs
of their suits. If they can make lots of money, I should be able to
make more.
Don't confuse the ability to spend lots of money with the ability to
earn lots of money.
Post by Doki
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
particularly if you're doing IT contracting.
I'm not.
Post by Doki
I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never
have. So I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in
a different sector.
If you love your sector why not look at ways to progress within it? I
truly love what I do, though every now and again I get the urge to
pack it all in and go and work in a day nursery on minimum wage.
Basically, I'm in consultancy. Ask near enough anyone about how to
make money in the sector, and they'll tell you to go into
consultancy. There's still no money in that.
Why? Sorry, this is a serious question, simply because there may be
something you've overlooked, you may have chosen the "wrong" place of
employment etc etc.
Post by Doki
My encounters with the
voluntary / charitable sector has been that they don't know their arse
from their elbow, and so working with them would be incredibly
frustrating, and I'm not over interested in going to work for the
Govt.
... which would probably pay more than you earn now and you do get
reasonable hours and most likely a decent pension scheme. You could for
example use this as a starting point and use the spare time you get that
way to further your education, either formal (ie OU or similar - do a
part-time IT degree?) or informally by doing MSCEs and stuff.

You /will/ have to do the above because in order to stand out far enough
from the crowd to get people to pay you additional cash (or even give
you a job when times are tough), you have to be a lot better than the
other candidates.
Post by Doki
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
I've got a first class degree, which mainly covered ecology and
landscape stuff (ie restoration, LCA etc.), but I'm halfway inclined
to say fuck the lot
Why? Is it just about the money?
It's not so much wanting to have money than not wanting to be short of it.
Post by Lady Nina
How do you define success?
Enough money and free time
I think I can pretty much snip the rest, sorry. You'll find that
especially in IT you can get either the cash or the free time, but never
both. And if you are trying to be really good at something (and why
bother if you don't want to ) this will eat up all your free time for a
long time to come.

You also have to keep in mind that more money will mean more work and
thus less time to indulge in your hobbies, plus you'll have to pay other
people to do work that you could do yourself simply because of the
time/cash trade-off. I'm sorry to say but you can't have it both ways.
Post by Doki
to indulge my hobbies of fucking around
with old cars, riding mountain bikes and going to see the occasional
gig, and put away some pension provision, and should I eventually come
to have kids, enough cash that my bird doesn't need to work full time
and shove the kids in daycare, and enough cash stashed away that I can
tell my boss to stick their job, or bugger off on holiday for 6 months
should I feel the need. A decent detached house in a leafy suburb so I
don't need to worry about the neighbours complaining about my music
being on too loud. Little enough work that I can actually get some
sleep, not feel like my head is full of root vegetables instead of
brains and not walk around being a snappy bastard because I'm
exhausted.
That's not exactly 20k/year, though, is it? Even down here I'd be
looking at 300k-400k for a house like the one you describe, so go figure
how much you'd need to earn in order to pay a mortgage for one. And this
is not an expensive part of Kent that I live in.
Post by Doki
Post by Lady Nina
Post by Doki
Going to London
is also something I'd like to avoid, but I'm within commuting
distance of Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.
If you want to make a lot of money, you have to go where the money is
and that is London. You don't have to live there but if you don't you'll
spend an awful lot of time commuting.
Post by Doki
Post by Lady Nina
My ex husband works in IT in London and has a company flat Mon-Fri,
he's been looking for work back here so he can see more of the kids
and it simply isn't available at a comparable income. Mind you for
starting level IT there's Capital One in Nottingham, I imagine even as
a drone you'd be on more than the 20k you indicated in the bit I've
snipped.
I've got mates who work in London. As far as I can see the going rate
is often stupendous, but often so are the hours.
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Post by Doki
It'd take a lot to
get me into any big city to be honest. Leeds, Brum or Manc are all
fucking holes as far as I'm concerned, and I couldn't be doing with
the hassle required to get somewhere green. OTOH smaller cities like
Nottingham and Sheffield are far more civilised, and it's a practical
proposition to live relatively close to the centre of town and commute
to work by pushbike, rather than sitting in traffic getting pissed off
in the car.
Commuting in a car? This is UKRM. Over here we commute by bike. Well,
some of us do, and several of us like burnt or myself do an awful lot of
miles that way.
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar
ogden
2008-08-23 11:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Geusch
... which would probably pay more than you earn now and you do get
reasonable hours and most likely a decent pension scheme. You could for
example use this as a starting point and use the spare time you get that
way to further your education, either formal (ie OU or similar - do a
part-time IT degree?) or informally by doing MSCEs and stuff.
You /will/ have to do the above because in order to stand out far enough
from the crowd to get people to pay you additional cash (or even give
you a job when times are tough), you have to be a lot better than the
other candidates.
Not necessarily. I had nothing beyond an A-level, and no industry
qualifications whatsoever, until a couple of years ago. Even now, I
have a couple of certs but nothing I'd sing and dance about. Finding
jobs hasn't been a problem and I've always managed to get _at least_
the maximum they're offering at the time. I'd hate to think I was so
exceptional.
Post by Timo Geusch
I think I can pretty much snip the rest, sorry. You'll find that
especially in IT you can get either the cash or the free time, but never
both. And if you are trying to be really good at something (and why
bother if you don't want to ) this will eat up all your free time for a
long time to come.
You also have to keep in mind that more money will mean more work and
thus less time to indulge in your hobbies, plus you'll have to pay other
people to do work that you could do yourself simply because of the
time/cash trade-off. I'm sorry to say but you can't have it both ways.
I don't give a monkeys about being really good at what I do, so long as
I'm good enough. I do it for the money, plain and simple, and I'd
happily do something else tomorrow if it was as easy and paid as well.

I wouldn't say I'm on spectacular money, but almost certainly in the
higher UKRM bracket and I do a bog 40 hour week with as little overtime
as makes no odds. My last job paid roughly the same, had a far shorter
week and involved no overtime at all. Maybe you've been working in the
financial world too long.
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Doki
I've got mates who work in London. As far as I can see the going rate
is often stupendous, but often so are the hours.
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hmm. I might disagree with that. If he's using 20k as a baseline,
"loadsa dosh" and 35-hour (or 40 hour, in my job) weeks are pretty well
compatible.
--
ogden

GSXR750 K4
RGV250 VJ22
Champ
2008-08-23 12:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by ogden
Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks are rather incompatible.
Hmm. I might disagree with that. If he's using 20k as a baseline,
"loadsa dosh" and 35-hour (or 40 hour, in my job) weeks are pretty well
compatible.
I'm with Ogden on this. I'm easily earning more than the top 10% (and
perhaps inside the top 5% - none of the gov stats seem to give more
detail than by decile), for a pretty standard 37.5 hour week, no
overtime, and no real expectation of putting additional hours in.
--
Champ
What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 racer (for sale) | ZX10R racer (broken)
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Timo Geusch
2008-08-23 17:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by ogden
Post by Timo Geusch
... which would probably pay more than you earn now and you do get
reasonable hours and most likely a decent pension scheme. You could for
example use this as a starting point and use the spare time you get that
way to further your education, either formal (ie OU or similar - do a
part-time IT degree?) or informally by doing MSCEs and stuff.
You /will/ have to do the above because in order to stand out far enough
from the crowd to get people to pay you additional cash (or even give
you a job when times are tough), you have to be a lot better than the
other candidates.
Not necessarily. I had nothing beyond an A-level, and no industry
qualifications whatsoever, until a couple of years ago. Even now, I
have a couple of certs but nothing I'd sing and dance about. Finding
jobs hasn't been a problem and I've always managed to get _at least_
the maximum they're offering at the time. I'd hate to think I was so
exceptional.
I'm not saying that you have to have degrees coming out of your ears - I
haven't got a degree either so I'd probably qualify for "nothing beyond
A-levels" in a sense.

But you have to have something that would get a potential employer or
customer to hire *you* for some work and not the next bod.
Post by ogden
Post by Timo Geusch
I think I can pretty much snip the rest, sorry. You'll find that
especially in IT you can get either the cash or the free time, but never
both. And if you are trying to be really good at something (and why
bother if you don't want to ) this will eat up all your free time for a
long time to come.
You also have to keep in mind that more money will mean more work and
thus less time to indulge in your hobbies, plus you'll have to pay other
people to do work that you could do yourself simply because of the
time/cash trade-off. I'm sorry to say but you can't have it both ways.
I don't give a monkeys about being really good at what I do, so long as
I'm good enough. I do it for the money, plain and simple, and I'd
happily do something else tomorrow if it was as easy and paid as well.
Different attitudes then - if I spend as much time on something like
work, I like to do it to the best of my ability, which may well exceed
"good enough". At least I hope it would.
Post by ogden
I wouldn't say I'm on spectacular money, but almost certainly in the
higher UKRM bracket and I do a bog 40 hour week with as little overtime
as makes no odds. My last job paid roughly the same, had a far shorter
week and involved no overtime at all. Maybe you've been working in the
financial world too long.
No, I've been working in software development for too fucking long. And
software development management, too.
Post by ogden
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Doki
I've got mates who work in London. As far as I can see the going rate
is often stupendous, but often so are the hours.
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hmm. I might disagree with that. If he's using 20k as a baseline,
"loadsa dosh" and 35-hour (or 40 hour, in my job) weeks are pretty well
compatible.
Yebbut, loadsa dosh starts above the average national income IMHO and at
that point you may have to work a little harder, a little longer or find
another way of providing 'value' for the guys paying you.
--
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Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar
ogden
2008-08-23 18:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by ogden
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Doki
I've got mates who work in London. As far as I can see the going rate
is often stupendous, but often so are the hours.
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hmm. I might disagree with that. If he's using 20k as a baseline,
"loadsa dosh" and 35-hour (or 40 hour, in my job) weeks are pretty well
compatible.
Yebbut, loadsa dosh starts above the average national income IMHO and at
that point you may have to work a little harder, a little longer or find
another way of providing 'value' for the guys paying you.
Like Champ, I prefer to provide 'value' by being good (enough) at what
I do and delivering results where they're needed. I also prefer to do
that without working every waking hour. So far I haven't found those
two approaches to be mutually exclusive and, without going all darsy,
I'd find it hard to drag myself out of bed for the national average.

The idea that you have to put in stupid hours to make reasonable money
is the kind of confidence trick that Capital has been pulling off for
hundreds of years. It's complete and utter bollocks. Right brother
Weller?
--
ogden

GSXR750 K4
RGV250 VJ22
Champ
2008-08-23 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:38:33 +0100, Timo Geusch
Post by Timo Geusch
Yebbut, loadsa dosh starts above the average national income IMHO and at
that point you may have to work a little harder, a little longer or find
another way of providing 'value' for the guys paying you.
Bollox. Nobody got rich by working harder than the other guy. They
did it by doing something the other guy can't do.
--
Champ

Two standard issue crutches
To email me, neal at my domain should work.
Ace
2008-08-23 18:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:38:33 +0100, Timo Geusch
Post by Timo Geusch
Yebbut, loadsa dosh starts above the average national income IMHO and at
that point you may have to work a little harder, a little longer or find
another way of providing 'value' for the guys paying you.
Bollox. Nobody got rich by working harder than the other guy. They
did it by doing something the other guy can't do.
Nothing wrong with a bit of hard work and long hours, but if you're
needing to do it more than a couple of times a year you're doing
something wrong.
--
_______
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\`\ | /`/
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`
steve auvache
2008-08-23 19:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:38:33 +0100, Timo Geusch
Post by Timo Geusch
Yebbut, loadsa dosh starts above the average national income IMHO and at
that point you may have to work a little harder, a little longer or find
another way of providing 'value' for the guys paying you.
Bollox. Nobody got rich by working harder than the other guy. They
did it by doing something the other guy can't do.
That something is actually a combination of things but includes the
suppression of conscience, theft, lying, cheating and generally behaving
in a most anti social manner but hey they are now Captains of Industry
and we have new Lords to doff our caps to.
--
steve auvache
A Bloo one with built in safety features
Doki
2008-08-23 13:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Doki
Nah, it wasn't you. It was the bods who are earning a fair amount of
cash doing contracting and the like, both people here and
offline.
Well, I guess I am one of those people you are referring to. Keep in
mind however that I've been doing this for nigh on twenty years and only
got up to the reasonable middle class income level a few years ago.
Righto.
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Doki
That and the nouveau riche morons I keep seeing about the
place in flash cars with the maker's tags still stitched to the cuffs
of their suits. If they can make lots of money, I should be able to
make more.
Don't confuse the ability to spend lots of money with the ability to
earn lots of money.
Aye. Some of it must be paid for with actual cash rather than debt mind.
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Doki
Basically, I'm in consultancy. Ask near enough anyone about how to
make money in the sector, and they'll tell you to go into
consultancy. There's still no money in that.
Why? Sorry, this is a serious question, simply because there may be
something you've overlooked, you may have chosen the "wrong" place of
employment etc etc.
Not as far as I can tell. Certainly the firm isn't losing staff at the rate
you'd expect if they weren't paying the going rate, and I know that some
other firms pay far less.
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Doki
My encounters with the
voluntary / charitable sector has been that they don't know their arse
from their elbow, and so working with them would be incredibly
frustrating, and I'm not over interested in going to work for the
Govt.
... which would probably pay more than you earn now and you do get
reasonable hours and most likely a decent pension scheme.
There are some jobs like that, but there are a hell of a lot of local govt
projects which are funded by lottery grants, EU funds etc. and whether you
get cash to continue running your department depends on which way the wind
is blowing rather than if you're doing a good job or not. Basically the best
you can hope for much of the time is to get into an X year project at the
start and hope to find something else at the end.
Post by Timo Geusch
You could for
example use this as a starting point and use the spare time you get that
way to further your education, either formal (ie OU or similar - do a
part-time IT degree?) or informally by doing MSCEs and stuff.
Serious retraining, ie, another degree is not going to happen. I'd perhaps
consider a masters but I don't want to be doing another 3 years of pissing
around.
Post by Timo Geusch
You /will/ have to do the above because in order to stand out far enough
from the crowd to get people to pay you additional cash (or even give
you a job when times are tough), you have to be a lot better than the
other candidates.
I think some sort of corporate grad scheme may be the way to go. The more I
learn about IT the less I fancy doing it.
Post by Timo Geusch
You also have to keep in mind that more money will mean more work and
thus less time to indulge in your hobbies, plus you'll have to pay other
people to do work that you could do yourself simply because of the
time/cash trade-off. I'm sorry to say but you can't have it both ways.
The current issue is that I have no time and I have no cash... I've got it
neither way!
Post by Timo Geusch
That's not exactly 20k/year, though, is it? Even down here I'd be
looking at 300k-400k for a house like the one you describe, so go figure
how much you'd need to earn in order to pay a mortgage for one. And this
is not an expensive part of Kent that I live in.
£20k a year to start, not £20k a year for the rest of my life. Around where
I'd want to live you can get alright detatched places down to about £200k,
so it's not quite so horrendously out of reach.
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Doki
Post by Doki
Going to London
is also something I'd like to avoid, but I'm within commuting
distance of Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.
If you want to make a lot of money, you have to go where the money is
and that is London. You don't have to live there but if you don't you'll
spend an awful lot of time commuting.
I've no interest in doing either. I suspect my idea of a lot of money is
different to your idea.
Post by Timo Geusch
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60 hours a
week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
ogden
2008-08-23 13:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Timo Geusch
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60 hours a
week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
Define "decent"

I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
--
ogden

GSXR750 K4
RGV250 VJ22
Doki
2008-08-23 13:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by Timo Geusch
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60 hours a
week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
ogden
2008-08-23 13:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by Timo Geusch
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60 hours a
week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me.
Fuck. That. With bells on.
--
ogden

GSXR750 K4
RGV250 VJ22
Catman
2008-08-23 14:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by Timo Geusch
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60 hours a
week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me.
Fuck. That. With bells on.
Got to agree.
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
BGN
2008-08-23 14:59:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:40:14 GMT, Catman
Post by Catman
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by Timo Geusch
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60 hours a
week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me.
Fuck. That. With bells on.
Got to agree.
Only £12.82/hour (40000/52/60)
--
-- Nick ICQ: 9235201 EMAIL & MSN: ***@spamcop.net
-- Triumph Tiger 955i -- http://www.bgn.me.uk - Touché -
-- LOTR#4 SKOGA#8 DS#7 BOTAFOT#159 BOTM#2 FBOTY#06 PM#11
Timo Geusch
2008-08-23 17:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Catman
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by Timo Geusch
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60 hours a
week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me.
Fuck. That. With bells on.
Got to agree.
Ayup.
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar
Macie
2008-08-23 19:46:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:40:14 GMT, Catman
Post by Catman
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me.
Fuck. That. With bells on.
Got to agree.
Looks like I could do with a job change as well as Doki then, because
I share his expectations. 40K with our lot is just under Director
level, with that being senior manager level in some of our bigger
competitors.

Some of our better-paid depot managers might make 25K and for that
they will do a realistic minimum of 50 hours, be able to sell OK,
manage a dozen staff, a workshop and also do the odd Saturday. Oh,
and be responsible for a full P&L and do at least one week in three on
24/7 call-out.

Actually, thinking about the last dozen years or so, this isn't
particularly out of step with the last 4 places I've worked for, so
I'd say more of a change of industry would be more accurate.

<fx: fires up jobsites>
--
Macie
ZZR600E1 | Baghira 660
GungaDan
2008-08-23 21:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Macie
Actually, thinking about the last dozen years or so, this isn't
particularly out of step with the last 4 places I've worked for, so
I'd say more of a change of industry would be more accurate.
Which industry is that (so I can avoid it)?
Macie
2008-08-24 00:55:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT), GungaDan
Post by GungaDan
Post by Macie
Actually, thinking about the last dozen years or so, this isn't
particularly out of step with the last 4 places I've worked for, so
I'd say more of a change of industry would be more accurate.
Which industry is that (so I can avoid it)?
Currently truck rental / contract hire. But van/car/bin lorry/trailer
rental is pretty similar. Plant and tool hire is apparently worse.
--
Macie
ZZR600E1 | Baghira 660
Doki
2008-08-23 21:55:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by BGN
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:40:14 GMT, Catman
Post by Catman
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me.
Fuck. That. With bells on.
Got to agree.
Looks like I could do with a job change as well as Doki then, because
I share his expectations. 40K with our lot is just under Director
level, with that being senior manager level in some of our bigger
competitors.
Some of our better-paid depot managers might make 25K and for that
they will do a realistic minimum of 50 hours, be able to sell OK,
manage a dozen staff, a workshop and also do the odd Saturday. Oh,
and be responsible for a full P&L and do at least one week in three on
24/7 call-out.
Actually, thinking about the last dozen years or so, this isn't
particularly out of step with the last 4 places I've worked for, so
I'd say more of a change of industry would be more accurate.
<fx: fires up jobsites>
I think it may be particularly common in mid sized firms. Ours certainly
have worked out no way of telling how well someone is performing other than
how many chargeable hours they've produced.
Macie
2008-08-24 01:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Macie
Some of our better-paid depot managers might make 25K and for that
they will do a realistic minimum of 50 hours, be able to sell OK,
manage a dozen staff, a workshop and also do the odd Saturday. Oh,
and be responsible for a full P&L and do at least one week in three on
24/7 call-out.
Actually, thinking about the last dozen years or so, this isn't
particularly out of step with the last 4 places I've worked for, so
I'd say more of a change of industry would be more accurate.
I think it may be particularly common in mid sized firms. Ours certainly
have worked out no way of telling how well someone is performing other than
how many chargeable hours they've produced.
Oh some multi-nationals are quite similar too, although the largest
company that I've worked for were by far the the worst for office
politics and general anal-ness. One example that springs to mind was
an interview for a regional manager - it was conducted over a day and
a half, and even how the candidate performed at their evening meal was
noted. Apparently, using tomato sauce was not deemed appropriate
behaviour for the level of post.

Fortunately I'm not 'on the clock' as it were. I suppose even more
fortunate is that there is no-one else in the company that does all of
what I do.

The downside is that I took the job on a 'will keep me interested'
basis rather than 'splendid amount of money' basis. Perhaps I should
be more mercenary as friends frequently tell me I'm a twat for doing
what I do, which is all well and good - but with bugger all in the way
of formal qualifications getting into something sensible seems
unlikely.
--
Macie
ZZR600E1 | Baghira 660
GungaDan
2008-08-23 13:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Post by Timo Geusch
Unfortunately it's most often either/or. Loadsa dosh and 35-hour weeks
are rather incompatible.
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60 hours a
week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
Get a job paying £26K for a standard 40hr working week and do 20hrs
worth of overtime.
Champ
2008-08-23 14:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60
hours a week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
I've done 60 hours a week for a few short bursts over my working life,
and it fucking kills me. It's just about the definition of the
opposite of 'quite pleasant' for me
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
I'm not sure the money exists that would see me doing 90 hours.
Jesus, that's 15 hours a day for 6 days!
Post by Doki
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
You really need to adjust your expectations of what reasonable is, I'd
say. Without entering into a Darsy-esque "Oi'm considerably richer
than you" conversation, that sort of money is for a regular working
week, as far as I'm concerned. And I freely admit to my employers
that I don't work particularly hard - what I do is provide them with
results, 'value' in the modern vernacular, which justifies my salary.
--
Champ
What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 racer (for sale) | ZX10R racer (broken)
neal at champ dot org dot uk
ogden
2008-08-23 15:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
Post by Doki
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
You really need to adjust your expectations of what reasonable is, I'd
say. Without entering into a Darsy-esque "Oi'm considerably richer
than you" conversation, that sort of money is for a regular working
week, as far as I'm concerned. And I freely admit to my employers
that I don't work particularly hard - what I do is provide them with
results, 'value' in the modern vernacular, which justifies my salary.
"Work smart, not hard"
--
ogden

GSXR750 K4
RGV250 VJ22
geoff
2008-08-23 17:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by ogden
Post by Champ
Post by Doki
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
You really need to adjust your expectations of what reasonable is, I'd
say. Without entering into a Darsy-esque "Oi'm considerably richer
than you" conversation, that sort of money is for a regular working
week, as far as I'm concerned. And I freely admit to my employers
that I don't work particularly hard - what I do is provide them with
results, 'value' in the modern vernacular, which justifies my salary.
"Work smart, not hard"
have others work for you ...
--
geoff
Champ
2008-08-23 17:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Post by ogden
Post by Champ
Post by Doki
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
You really need to adjust your expectations of what reasonable is, I'd
say. Without entering into a Darsy-esque "Oi'm considerably richer
than you" conversation, that sort of money is for a regular working
week, as far as I'm concerned. And I freely admit to my employers
that I don't work particularly hard - what I do is provide them with
results, 'value' in the modern vernacular, which justifies my salary.
"Work smart, not hard"
have others work for you ...
Yeah, but that brings a whole bunch of other headaches.
--
Champ

Two standard issue crutches
To email me, neal at my domain should work.
Nige
2008-08-23 18:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
Post by geoff
Post by ogden
Post by Champ
Post by Doki
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
You really need to adjust your expectations of what reasonable is, I'd
say. Without entering into a Darsy-esque "Oi'm considerably richer
than you" conversation, that sort of money is for a regular working
week, as far as I'm concerned. And I freely admit to my employers
that I don't work particularly hard - what I do is provide them with
results, 'value' in the modern vernacular, which justifies my salary.
"Work smart, not hard"
have others work for you ...
Yeah, but that brings a whole bunch of other headaches.
And the fucking rest.
--
Nige, 'It's all about the speed'

Range Rover Td6 Vogue
BMW K1200S
Suzuki GSX-R1000 K3 (coming soon)
Focus ST3
geoff
2008-08-23 19:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
Post by geoff
Post by ogden
Post by Champ
Post by Doki
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
You really need to adjust your expectations of what reasonable is, I'd
say. Without entering into a Darsy-esque "Oi'm considerably richer
than you" conversation, that sort of money is for a regular working
week, as far as I'm concerned. And I freely admit to my employers
that I don't work particularly hard - what I do is provide them with
results, 'value' in the modern vernacular, which justifies my salary.
"Work smart, not hard"
have others work for you ...
Yeah, but that brings a whole bunch of other headaches.
does it ever

pays for the beer though
--
geoff
Doki
2008-08-23 18:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Post by Doki
Hence saying I'd do up to 60 hours a week. I've no intention of doing 90
hour weeks like some people I know who do earn a lot of cash, but 60
hours a week for a decent amount of cash would be quite pleasant.
I've done 60 hours a week for a few short bursts over my working life,
and it fucking kills me. It's just about the definition of the
opposite of 'quite pleasant' for me
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
Define "decent"
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
I'm not sure the money exists that would see me doing 90 hours.
Jesus, that's 15 hours a day for 6 days!
Post by Doki
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who works
stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
You really need to adjust your expectations of what reasonable is, I'd
say. Without entering into a Darsy-esque "Oi'm considerably richer
than you" conversation, that sort of money is for a regular working
week, as far as I'm concerned.
Righto. It's certainly not the way I'd choose to do things - even when I had
a dissertation to do in 2 weeks, I tended to do about 10 hours of solid work
a day. Any more than that and I knew I wasn't doing any good by tiring
myself out too much. OTOH quite a lot of my stuff at work is stuff that
takes as long as it takes - going to a site and the associated travel time,
and your hours tend to get a bit silly if you actually intend to get any
office work done. That and the fact that everyone else is willing to do it
doesn't help - there are some who'll do 9 hours a day in the office near
enough no matter what night work they did the day before.
Post by Champ
And I freely admit to my employers
that I don't work particularly hard - what I do is provide them with
results, 'value' in the modern vernacular, which justifies my salary.
Aye. My employers aren't quite that enlightened.
Macie
2008-08-23 20:09:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by Champ
I've done 60 hours a week for a few short bursts over my working life,
and it fucking kills me. It's just about the definition of the
opposite of 'quite pleasant' for me
OTOH quite a lot of my stuff at work is stuff that
takes as long as it takes - going to a site and the associated travel time,
and your hours tend to get a bit silly if you actually intend to get any
office work done. That and the fact that everyone else is willing to do it
doesn't help - there are some who'll do 9 hours a day in the office near
enough no matter what night work they did the day before.
*Ding*. Our operations director is regularly on the road at 4am, will
get home at 7 or 8pm and then be on the phone for a couple of hours.
Even when abroad on holiday he's on the phone or email many times a
day. The other directors will all do around a 60 hour week, with the
2 bods below that level putting in about 70.

I tend to get a fair few digs for being the only one at my level that
doesn't answer my phone at weekends or when holiday.
--
Macie
ZZR600E1 | Baghira 660
Lozzo
2008-08-23 20:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Macie
I tend to get a fair few digs for being the only one at my level that
doesn't answer my phone at weekends or when holiday.
I flatly refused to answer any works related phone call when I was on
my time, unless it was the MD.
--
Lozzo
ogden
2008-08-23 20:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lozzo
Post by Macie
I tend to get a fair few digs for being the only one at my level that
doesn't answer my phone at weekends or when holiday.
I flatly refused to answer any works related phone call when I was on
my time, unless it was the MD.
I have a work mobile, separate from my own, and it stays switched off
or in the office when I'm not working. I have a work laptop which
generally lives in the office.

It's not a difficult routine to stick to.
--
ogden

GSXR750 K4
RGV250 VJ22
Macie
2008-08-24 01:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by ogden
Post by Lozzo
Post by Macie
I tend to get a fair few digs for being the only one at my level that
doesn't answer my phone at weekends or when holiday.
I flatly refused to answer any works related phone call when I was on
my time, unless it was the MD.
I have a work mobile, separate from my own, and it stays switched off
or in the office when I'm not working. I have a work laptop which
generally lives in the office.
It's not a difficult routine to stick to.
Yes I know, but I was alluding to Doki's comment about peer pressure.
Fortunately I can be a stubborn cunt, and with this firm it won't hurt
my future career prospects [probably because there are unlikely to be
any] but certainly with some companies if you deviate from 'the norm'
it is viewed as a bad thing.
--
Macie
ZZR600E1 | Baghira 660
platypus
2008-08-23 23:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Macie
Post by Doki
Post by Champ
I've done 60 hours a week for a few short bursts over my working
life, and it fucking kills me. It's just about the definition of
the opposite of 'quite pleasant' for me
OTOH quite a lot of my stuff at work is stuff that
takes as long as it takes - going to a site and the associated
travel time, and your hours tend to get a bit silly if you actually
intend to get any office work done. That and the fact that everyone
else is willing to do it doesn't help - there are some who'll do 9
hours a day in the office near enough no matter what night work they
did the day before.
*Ding*. Our operations director is regularly on the road at 4am, will
get home at 7 or 8pm and then be on the phone for a couple of hours.
Even when abroad on holiday he's on the phone or email many times a
day. The other directors will all do around a 60 hour week, with the
2 bods below that level putting in about 70.
You'd have to wonder why the organisation is so badly
managed/inefficient/understaffed etc to require such lurid performances.
Post by Macie
I tend to get a fair few digs for being the only one at my level that
doesn't answer my phone at weekends or when holiday.
And yet, somehow, the sky doesn't fall. Perhaps you have your area of
responsibility better sorted out than theirs?
Macie
2008-08-24 02:01:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:51:05 GMT, "platypus"
Post by platypus
Post by Macie
*Ding*. Our operations director is regularly on the road at 4am, will
get home at 7 or 8pm and then be on the phone for a couple of hours.
Even when abroad on holiday he's on the phone or email many times a
day. The other directors will all do around a 60 hour week, with the
2 bods below that level putting in about 70.
You'd have to wonder why the organisation is so badly
managed/inefficient/understaffed etc to require such lurid performances.
The grown-ups think we are managed wonderfully well, and they must be
right because, well they are in the position they are.

The ops director in question has apparently always worked like that,
despite being wealthy enough to never work again. In a similar
fashion to recommending what you ride, it's no real surprise that he
judges people on the hours / miles / phone calls [1] they make. He
will often call at 06:45 on the pretence of needing some report
pulling off the system but you *know* that he's checking that you are
already on the road.

The two lesser bods want to become directors and thus feel that
putting in the hours is the only way that they will make it.
Post by platypus
Post by Macie
I tend to get a fair few digs for being the only one at my level that
doesn't answer my phone at weekends or when holiday.
And yet, somehow, the sky doesn't fall. Perhaps you have your area of
responsibility better sorted out than theirs?
I'd like to think so. Many years ago a wise boss told me to take note
of the coffee breaks at our national montly meetings. His opinion was
that the managers that would rush outside, turn their mobiles on and
phone their staff to check that everything was OK were merely
demonstrating that they were crap managers.

I have to say that over the intervening years I think that's been a
pretty good benchmark - and not being able to 'let it go' while on
holiday seems a similar trait.

Then again, I'm poor, so probably wrong.
--
Macie
ZZR600E1 | Baghira 660
Simian
2008-08-23 18:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who
works stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
Fuck no.

I provide value to the company I work for by being good at what I do,
not by spending 60hrs a week doing it.
Champ
2008-08-23 19:49:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:32:01 -0500, "Simian"
Post by Simian
Post by Doki
Post by ogden
I'd want a fucking fortune to do 60-90 hour weeks on a regular basis.
£40k or so for 60 hours would seem fairly reasonable to me. Mate who
works stupid hours is probably on around £60-£70k.
Fuck no.
I provide value to the company I work for by being good at what I do,
not by spending 60hrs a week doing it.
Fucking great big *ding*
--
Champ

Two standard issue crutches
To email me, neal at my domain should work.
DoetNietComputeren
2008-08-22 14:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
a fairly well paid job
(ie, £20k
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?

--
Dnc
Wicked Uncle Nigel
2008-08-22 14:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique,
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Post by Doki
a fairly well paid job
(ie, £20k
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?
Fourpence three-farthings. And all the gruel you can eat.
--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest"

My position was (and, to be honest, largely remains) one of complete ambiguity.
DoetNietComputeren
2008-08-22 14:47:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?
Fourpence three-farthings. And all the gruel you can eat.
<narrows eyes> I didn't realise we worked for the same mob....

--
dnc
Catman
2008-08-22 14:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Post by Doki
a fairly well paid job
(ie, £20k
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?
According to the rag I was reading while waiting for my head to be
polished: £23750
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
Doki
2008-08-22 15:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Post by Doki
a fairly well paid job
(ie, £20k
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?
Around £24k.
BGN
2008-08-22 19:30:42 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:29:16 -0700 (PDT), DoetNietComputeren
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Post by Doki
a fairly well paid job
(ie, £20k
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.

It also means working a different daily rota which ranges from 8am-7pm
with shifts like 9am-5pm, 8am-4.45pm, 9am-7pm and working weekends
without additional pay as the "normal working week is five days out of
seven" and not "normal working week is Mon-Fri"
--
-- Nick ICQ: 9235201 EMAIL & MSN: ***@spamcop.net
-- Triumph Tiger 955i -- http://www.bgn.me.uk - Touché -
-- LOTR#4 SKOGA#8 DS#7 BOTAFOT#159 BOTM#2 FBOTY#06 PM#11
platypus
2008-08-22 19:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by BGN
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:29:16 -0700 (PDT), DoetNietComputeren
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Post by Doki
a fairly well paid job
(ie, £20k
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty
these days?
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
Also known as minimum wage - one of the reasons you generally don't get
great service from callcentres.
frag
2008-08-22 21:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by BGN
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:29:16 -0700 (PDT), DoetNietComputeren
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Post by Doki
a fairly well paid job
(ie, £20k
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
FFS, how do they live on that?

I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
--
frag
Microplanet Gravity Beta version : http://www.ukrm.co.uk/gravity
Simian
2008-08-23 00:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by frag
Post by BGN
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
FFS, how do they live on that?
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
It would be exactly the same if you were on 60k, or 90, or 120.
Wicked Uncle Nigel
2008-08-23 00:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Simian
Post by Simian
Post by frag
Post by BGN
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
FFS, how do they live on that?
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
It would be exactly the same if you were on 60k, or 90, or 120.
*Ding*
--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest"

My position was (and, to be honest, largely remains) one of complete ambiguity.
Timo Geusch
2008-08-23 05:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Simian
Post by Simian
Post by frag
Post by BGN
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
FFS, how do they live on that?
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
It would be exactly the same if you were on 60k, or 90, or 120.
*Ding*
*dingding*
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar
Catman
2008-08-23 06:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Simian
Post by Simian
Post by frag
Post by BGN
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
FFS, how do they live on that?
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
It would be exactly the same if you were on 60k, or 90, or 120.
*Ding*
*dingding*
ppp[1] *ding*

[1] Just got out of the stopping smoking music sub-thread.
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
+.com (A.Lee)
2008-08-23 06:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by frag
Post by BGN
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
FFS, how do they live on that?
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
You live by never going out, not drinking alcohol, never having
take-aways, running 4 year old+ computers/tech equipment, £20 mobile
phones on PAYG then topping them up once every 2 months, not having for
house insurance, buying cheap clothes at Primark/BHS, never having a
holiday etc.

I know as I have done it for the last 2 years - typical income of £15k
inc. tax credits, 1 daughter, £300 mortgage etc.

And, TBH, I am quite happy with my lot, lack of ready cash isnt a real
problem.
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
frag
2008-08-23 13:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
Post by frag
Post by BGN
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
FFS, how do they live on that?
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
You live by never going out
Check
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
not drinking alcohol
Almost check
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
never having take-aways
Completely un check
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
running 4 year old+ computers/tech equipment
Totally, completely unchecked
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
£20 mobile phones on PAYG then topping them up once every 2 months
Ah, I think I see a pattern forming here. Too many gadgets and no life.
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
not having for house insurance
False economy. I did that with the first rented place and lost £4k of
stuff when I was burgled.
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
buying cheap clothes at Primark/BHS, never having a holiday etc.
Check and check.
--
frag
Microplanet Gravity Beta version : http://www.ukrm.co.uk/gravity
SD
2008-08-23 14:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
You live by never going out, not drinking alcohol, never having
take-aways, running 4 year old+ computers/tech equipment, £20 mobile
phones on PAYG then topping them up once every 2 months, not having for
house insurance, buying cheap clothes at Primark/BHS, never having a
holiday etc.
That's not "living", that's "existing".
--
Salad Dodger
+.com (A.Lee)
2008-08-23 14:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by SD
Post by +.com (A.Lee)
You live by never going out, not drinking alcohol, never having
take-aways, running 4 year old+ computers/tech equipment, £20 mobile
phones on PAYG then topping them up once every 2 months, not having for
house insurance, buying cheap clothes at Primark/BHS, never having a
holiday etc.
That's not "living", that's "existing".
You are right, and I dont consider myself too badly off compared to
others.
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
Ace
2008-08-23 08:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by frag
Post by BGN
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:29:16 -0700 (PDT), DoetNietComputeren
Post by DoetNietComputeren
Post by Doki
a fairly well paid job
(ie, £20k
Just out of interest, what is the average salary back in blighty these
days?
Call centre peeps are on around £11.5k with about £2k of potential
commission a year around these parts. That's 35 hours a week plus
about 4 hours a week of overtime paid at 1.33x.
FFS, how do they live on that?
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
FFS, how do you live on that?
--
_______
.'_/_|_\_'. Ace (b.rogers at ifrance.com)
\`\ | /`/
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`
Lozzo
2008-08-23 09:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ace
Post by frag
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
FFS, how do you live on that?
I live on far far less, I just don't buy gold taps
--
Lozzo
Ace
2008-08-23 09:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lozzo
Post by Ace
Post by frag
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
FFS, how do you live on that?
I live on far far less, I just don't buy gold taps
Yes, yes. Presumably you just chose to ignore the intentional irony in
my post?
--
_______
.'_/_|_\_'. Ace (b.rogers at ifrance.com)
\`\ | /`/
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`
frag
2008-08-23 13:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ace
Post by frag
FFS, how do they live on that?
I'm on 30K, got no mortgage and still only have maybe £600 a month
spare, sometimes none.
FFS, how do you live on that?
I know, I mean I want to replace the projector but thats gonna cost
£3.5k. And the gold keeps on wearing off the taps.
--
frag
Microplanet Gravity Beta version : http://www.ukrm.co.uk/gravity
Grimly Curmudgeon
2008-08-23 15:01:47 UTC
Permalink
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
Post by frag
And the gold keeps on wearing off the taps.
Brass ones and lots of Duraglit.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"It's a moron working with power tools.
How much more suspenseful can you get?"
- House
Elly
2008-08-22 14:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never have. So
I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in a different
sector.
I've got a first class degree, which mainly covered ecology and landscape
stuff (ie restoration, LCA etc.), but I'm halfway inclined to say fuck the
lot and go and do something like management or IT where you can be shoved
into a fairly well paid job pretty sharpish (ie, £20k with the prospect of
the wages going up appreciably if you're good at it). Whatever I do, it's
got to be something where I do less than 60 hours a week, so I suspect that
rules out most large IT consultancies and banks. I don't especially object
to occasional night work but anything that requires regular night or
unsociable hours doesn't interest me - same goes for being packed off to
India for weeks at a time to get offshore bods up to speed. Going to London
is also something I'd like to avoid, but I'm within commuting distance of
Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.
Obviously my degree is fairly irrelevant in terms of vocational skills, but
I did maths, physics and business studies badly (more through a lack of GAF
rather than aptitude) at A level and can pick up technical info fairly
quickly. Would I be best looking at going doing further training myself (or
finding an employer who'll train me) or working my way up from the bottom?
What's flavour of the month qualification wise?
You have mail
--
Elly - A contented Pixie
ZX9R-E1 - <Giggles>
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elly at garagepixies dot co dot uk
YTC#1
2008-08-23 09:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never have. So
I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in a different
sector.
Money isn't everything, time is more important. Your job may pay shit now,
but if you live within it you will find that oneday you have more than you
realised.

But TBH, a short spell contracting helps :-)
--
XJR1300SP, XJ900F, GSX250, 750SS
POTM#1(KoTL), WUSS#1 , YTC#1(bar), OSOS#2(KoTL) , DS#3 , IbW#18 ,Apostle#8
*(Emails to the posted address will be ignored)*
"The internet is a huge and diverse community and not every one is friendly"
http://www.ytc1.co.uk There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/
Get the Software http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris
Beelzebub
2008-08-23 12:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by YTC#1
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never have. So
I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in a different
sector.
Money isn't everything, time is more important. Your job may pay shit now,
but if you live within it you will find that oneday you have more than you
realised.
Indeedy - I could earn a lot more if I moved into private industry, but I
prefer the benefits of being a Civil Servant.
Doki
2008-08-23 12:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by YTC#1
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never have. So
I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in a different
sector.
Money isn't everything, time is more important. Your job may pay shit now,
but if you live within it you will find that oneday you have more than you
realised.
But TBH, a short spell contracting helps :-)
That's the issue. Somehow we get paid fuck all but also do horrendous hours.
19 hour days aren't unheard of, and 12 hour days are fairly common.
BGN
2008-08-23 13:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doki
Post by YTC#1
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never have. So
I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in a different
sector.
Money isn't everything, time is more important. Your job may pay shit now,
but if you live within it you will find that oneday you have more than you
realised.
But TBH, a short spell contracting helps :-)
That's the issue. Somehow we get paid fuck all but also do horrendous hours.
19 hour days aren't unheard of, and 12 hour days are fairly common.
Are your normal hours of work defined in your contract?
--
-- Nick ICQ: 9235201 EMAIL & MSN: ***@spamcop.net
-- Triumph Tiger 955i -- http://www.bgn.me.uk - Touché -
-- LOTR#4 SKOGA#8 DS#7 BOTAFOT#159 BOTM#2 FBOTY#06 PM#11
Timo Geusch
2008-08-23 17:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by BGN
Post by Doki
Post by YTC#1
Post by Doki
I understand some of you cungts have money coming out of your ears,
particularly if you're doing IT contracting. I don't, and looking at the way
that salaries are in my sector (environment / ecology), I may never have. So
I'm considering getting into a grad scheme for next year in a different
sector.
Money isn't everything, time is more important. Your job may pay shit now,
but if you live within it you will find that oneday you have more than you
realised.
But TBH, a short spell contracting helps :-)
That's the issue. Somehow we get paid fuck all but also do horrendous hours.
19 hour days aren't unheard of, and 12 hour days are fairly common.
Are your normal hours of work defined in your contract?
"See the chain that ties you to your desk"?
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar
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