Discussion:
OT: Leasing cars
(too old to reply)
Ben
2009-02-10 19:44:55 UTC
Permalink
I need to get a new car at some point this year, and given the 20k
miles I do a year, I want to get something reasonably new that can
have 60k stuck on it without batting an eyelid then outed after 3
years or so.[2]

Now, my current Fiesta appears to have depreciated by about 6 grand in
the 2.5 years I've owned it. Ok, so it was never going to hold its
value stunningly, but the cars I have in mind (Honda Civic and BMW 1)
also appear to lose about the same amount over 3 years according to
Parkers.

So that means the depreciation has cost me £200 per month of
ownership.

Given I can lease a Civic Type S GT for £240[1] per month over 24
months, mileage limit of 20000 per year and road tax included, why
would I want to buy one? Is it really this simple when you're not
planning on keeping a car for more than 3 years?



[1] The BMW 118d comes in about 350 quid, but it cheaper to run. Need
to do the sums more accurately.
[2] Not interesting in bangernomics, so don't start. Or cheap
luxo-barges. I do 400 miles a week and pay for my own petrol.
--
GSX-R1000K8
SteveH
2009-02-10 19:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Given I can lease a Civic Type S GT for £240[1] per month over 24
months, mileage limit of 20000 per year and road tax included, why
would I want to buy one? Is it really this simple when you're not
planning on keeping a car for more than 3 years?
It is, but you've given the lease company around £6.2k to borrow a car.

(Most deals will be 3+23)

That's a lot of money for something you never own.
Post by Ben
[1] The BMW 118d comes in about 350 quid, but it cheaper to run. Need
to do the sums more accurately.
Doubt you'd make it back, given that diesel is around 15p / litre more
costly than petrol.
Post by Ben
[2] Not interesting in bangernomics, so don't start. Or cheap
luxo-barges. I do 400 miles a week and pay for my own petrol.
Wouldn't say bangernomics, but there are loads of nearly new (up to,
say, 3 years old) cars available for £5.5k (plus interest) - my 10k mile
/ 2 year old 156 cost me £5.4k, for example.

At the end of 2 years, at worst, you'll have an asset worth £2k to trade
against another car, or keep, if it has been a good one.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed
Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso - Ducati 750SS - <Company car pending>
Ben
2009-02-10 20:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
Given I can lease a Civic Type S GT for £240[1] per month over 24
months, mileage limit of 20000 per year and road tax included, why
would I want to buy one? Is it really this simple when you're not
planning on keeping a car for more than 3 years?
It is, but you've given the lease company around £6.2k to borrow a car.
(Most deals will be 3+23)
That's a lot of money for something you never own.
But that's the point, I don't really want to own it. Or rather, I
need to change them every 3 years because the mileage gets silly on
them that they become worth bugger all.
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
[1] The BMW 118d comes in about 350 quid, but it cheaper to run. Need
to do the sums more accurately.
Doubt you'd make it back, given that diesel is around 15p / litre more
costly than petrol.
Ignoring the cost to buy, then the BMW is cheaper to run than the
Civic by about 500 quid over the year. But when you factor in the
cost to buy or lease then it isn't.

The 118d is amazingly fuel efficient and it's in the 35 quid road tax
bracket.
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
[2] Not interesting in bangernomics, so don't start. Or cheap
luxo-barges. I do 400 miles a week and pay for my own petrol.
Wouldn't say bangernomics, but there are loads of nearly new (up to,
say, 3 years old) cars available for £5.5k (plus interest) - my 10k mile
/ 2 year old 156 cost me £5.4k, for example.
At the end of 2 years, at worst, you'll have an asset worth £2k to trade
against another car, or keep, if it has been a good one.
But it'll still have cost me 4k over 2 years.

I need to pondered further. My conclusion at the moment is that if
you want a 'new' car, don't have cash to buy it, are planning on only
keeping it for a couple of years, and do a high mileage then leasing
suits. It you want to keep it a long time, or do a low mileage, then
buying suits.
--
GSX-R1000K8
Buzby
2009-02-10 20:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
Given I can lease a Civic Type S GT for £240[1] per month over 24
months, mileage limit of 20000 per year and road tax included, why
would I want to buy one? Is it really this simple when you're not
planning on keeping a car for more than 3 years?
It is, but you've given the lease company around £6.2k to borrow a car.
(Most deals will be 3+23)
That's a lot of money for something you never own.
But that's the point, I don't really want to own it. Or rather, I
need to change them every 3 years because the mileage gets silly on
them that they become worth bugger all.
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
[1] The BMW 118d comes in about 350 quid, but it cheaper to run.
Need >> to do the sums more accurately.
Post by SteveH
Doubt you'd make it back, given that diesel is around 15p / litre
more costly than petrol.
Ignoring the cost to buy, then the BMW is cheaper to run than the
Civic by about 500 quid over the year. But when you factor in the
cost to buy or lease then it isn't.
The 118d is amazingly fuel efficient and it's in the 35 quid road tax
bracket.
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
[2] Not interesting in bangernomics, so don't start. Or cheap
luxo-barges. I do 400 miles a week and pay for my own petrol.
Wouldn't say bangernomics, but there are loads of nearly new (up to,
say, 3 years old) cars available for £5.5k (plus interest) - my 10k
mile / 2 year old 156 cost me £5.4k, for example.
At the end of 2 years, at worst, you'll have an asset worth £2k to
trade against another car, or keep, if it has been a good one.
But it'll still have cost me 4k over 2 years.
I need to pondered further. My conclusion at the moment is that if
you want a 'new' car, don't have cash to buy it, are planning on only
keeping it for a couple of years, and do a high mileage then leasing
suits. It you want to keep it a long time, or do a low mileage, then
buying suits.
A narrow example of bangernomics http://tinyurl.com/altaht - all good
for at least 60k with a chance of getting a good proportion back.

My old e class estate cost me £2.7k - I've done 30k in 2 years and it's
cost me a new alternator and belt (£180 all in) plus consumables, which
are pretty much the same as any other manufacturer. I could probably
get approaching 2k for it so cheap motoring.
--
Buzby
"There's nothing more dangerous than a resourceful idiot"
Ben
2009-02-10 21:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzby
A narrow example of bangernomics http://tinyurl.com/altaht - all good
for at least 60k with a chance of getting a good proportion back.
That's not going to cost me 35 quid a week in petrol or be taxed for
under 200 quid a year though, is it?
--
GSX-R1000K8
SteveH
2009-02-10 21:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by Buzby
A narrow example of bangernomics http://tinyurl.com/altaht - all good
for at least 60k with a chance of getting a good proportion back.
That's not going to cost me 35 quid a week in petrol or be taxed for
under 200 quid a year though, is it?
Should see around 45mpg+ from the CDIs and tax isn't too bad at £175
this year, rising to £200 next year.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed
Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso - Ducati 750SS - <Company car pending>
Ben
2009-02-11 09:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
Post by Buzby
A narrow example of bangernomics http://tinyurl.com/altaht - all good
for at least 60k with a chance of getting a good proportion back.
That's not going to cost me 35 quid a week in petrol or be taxed for
under 200 quid a year though, is it?
Should see around 45mpg+ from the CDIs and tax isn't too bad at £175
this year, rising to £200 next year.
So 45mpg of derv will cost about 50 a week at the moment. And it'll
go up.

I'm either after a petrol car that will return 40mpg or a diesel that
will do 55.

Anyway, estates like that are too big. I don't have the drive space
for anything bigger than a Focus/Golf/Civic type car.
--
GSX-R1000K8
mike. buckley
2009-02-11 10:15:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
Post by Buzby
A narrow example of bangernomics http://tinyurl.com/altaht - all good
for at least 60k with a chance of getting a good proportion back.
That's not going to cost me 35 quid a week in petrol or be taxed for
under 200 quid a year though, is it?
Should see around 45mpg+ from the CDIs and tax isn't too bad at £175
this year, rising to £200 next year.
So 45mpg of derv will cost about 50 a week at the moment. And it'll
go up.
I'm either after a petrol car that will return 40mpg or a diesel that
will do 55.
Anyway, estates like that are too big. I don't have the drive space
for anything bigger than a Focus/Golf/Civic type car.
Move to a less pikey area, nice big drive available here in B90 2EY
land. Yours at only 209,995. Comes with free house.
--
Mike Buckley
RD350LC2
CB72
http://www.toastyhamster.plus.com
Ben
2009-02-11 10:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike. buckley
Post by Ben
Post by SteveH
Post by Ben
Post by Buzby
A narrow example of bangernomics http://tinyurl.com/altaht - all good
for at least 60k with a chance of getting a good proportion back.
That's not going to cost me 35 quid a week in petrol or be taxed for
under 200 quid a year though, is it?
Should see around 45mpg+ from the CDIs and tax isn't too bad at £175
this year, rising to £200 next year.
So 45mpg of derv will cost about 50 a week at the moment. And it'll
go up.
I'm either after a petrol car that will return 40mpg or a diesel that
will do 55.
Anyway, estates like that are too big. I don't have the drive space
for anything bigger than a Focus/Golf/Civic type car.
Move to a less pikey area, nice big drive available here in B90 2EY
land. Yours at only 209,995. Comes with free house.
:-)

I'm planning on moving late in 2010 when the deal on my mortgage runs
out.

Fancy a straight swap for a B91 postcode? More upmarket :-)
--
GSX-R1000K8
CT
2009-02-11 10:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike. buckley
Move to a less pikey area, nice big drive available here in B90 2EY
land. Yours at only 209,995. Comes with free house.
Solihull? Less pikey?! You're having a giraffe. :o)
--
Chris
mike. buckley
2009-02-11 10:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by CT
Post by mike. buckley
Move to a less pikey area, nice big drive available here in B90 2EY
land. Yours at only 209,995. Comes with free house.
Solihull? Less pikey?! You're having a giraffe. :o)
B90 is a Solihull postcode.

In response to Ben, we're off to NG? if we ever sell ours.
--
Mike Buckley
RD350LC2
CB72
http://www.toastyhamster.plus.com
Ben
2009-02-11 10:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike. buckley
Post by CT
Post by mike. buckley
Move to a less pikey area, nice big drive available here in B90 2EY
land. Yours at only 209,995. Comes with free house.
Solihull? Less pikey?! You're having a giraffe. :o)
B90 is a Solihull postcode.
<sucks teeth>
Post by mike. buckley
In response to Ben, we're off to NG? if we ever sell ours.
New Guinea?
--
GSX-R1000K8
Eiron
2009-02-11 11:06:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by CT
Post by mike. buckley
Move to a less pikey area, nice big drive available here in B90 2EY
land. Yours at only 209,995. Comes with free house.
Solihull? Less pikey?! You're having a giraffe. :o)
It's not been the same since they closed Mell Square to traffic.
I remember when it was all fields....
--
Eiron.
Timo Geusch
2009-02-10 21:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by Buzby
A narrow example of bangernomics http://tinyurl.com/altaht - all good
for at least 60k with a chance of getting a good proportion back.
That's not going to cost me 35 quid a week in petrol or be taxed for
under 200 quid a year though, is it?
And how much, in the grand scheme of car running costs, is the
difference between 35 quid/year RFL and 200 quid/year?
--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | XL250 Motosport | 900SSD | R1150RT
Laverda SF2 | Harley FXD BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/index.html
"Je profite du paysage" - Joe Bar
Ben
2009-02-11 09:54:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:46:48 +0000, Timo Geusch
Post by Timo Geusch
Post by Ben
Post by Buzby
A narrow example of bangernomics http://tinyurl.com/altaht - all good
for at least 60k with a chance of getting a good proportion back.
That's not going to cost me 35 quid a week in petrol or be taxed for
under 200 quid a year though, is it?
And how much, in the grand scheme of car running costs, is the
difference between 35 quid/year RFL and 200 quid/year?
Over three years, a year's insurance.
--
GSX-R1000K8
c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
2009-02-11 01:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by SteveH
That's a lot of money for something you never own.
But that's the point, I don't really want to own it. Or rather, I
need to change them every 3 years because the mileage gets silly on
them that they become worth bugger all.
Have you considered buying a low-ish mileage 1 year old example.
The biggest hunk of depreciation comes in the first year.
--
03 GS500
66 Velocette LE Mk3
68 Bantam D14S
Bear
2009-02-11 01:43:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
Post by Ben
Post by SteveH
That's a lot of money for something you never own.
But that's the point, I don't really want to own it. Or rather, I
need to change them every 3 years because the mileage gets silly on
them that they become worth bugger all.
Have you considered buying a low-ish mileage 1 year old example.
The biggest hunk of depreciation comes in the first year.
Ok, now I'm convinced.

You're an AI program, designed to post the most clueless, obvious or
fuckwitted response to any given thread.

Whoever programmed you deserves an award - you're simply beyond compare.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
2009-02-11 10:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
Have you considered buying a low-ish mileage 1 year old example.
The biggest hunk of depreciation comes in the first year.
Ok, now I'm convinced.
You're an AI program, designed to post the most clueless, obvious or
fuckwitted response to any given thread.
And what, precisely, is wrong with what I wrote ?.
My observation on early depreciation is clearly and demonstrably correct.
You are clearly a nasty vindictive useless cunt AICMFP.
Get a life and stop following me around like a bad smell..
--
03 GS500
66 Velocette LE Mk3
68 Bantam D14S
Bear
2009-02-11 10:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
Post by Bear
Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
Have you considered buying a low-ish mileage 1 year old example.
The biggest hunk of depreciation comes in the first year.
Ok, now I'm convinced.
You're an AI program, designed to post the most clueless, obvious or
fuckwitted response to any given thread.
And what, precisely, is wrong with what I wrote ?.
My observation on early depreciation is clearly and demonstrably correct.
That's hardly the point, Thunderbird II - it was your usual clueless
repetition of the bleedin obvious.
Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
You are clearly a nasty vindictive useless cunt AICMFP.
Get a life and stop following me around like a bad smell..
You know what? I'll do WTF I want to. If you don't like it, fuck off
or killfile me.

It'll stop when you start showing some signs, *any* signs, of
intelligent life. Let's not hold our breath, eh?
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
des
2009-02-11 10:12:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
You are clearly a nasty vindictive useless cunt AICMFP.
S'funny how it never takes folk long to get Bullshit Bear's number...

D.
--
des | 'what does it matter what he posts?'
ukrm: 'where it's "cool" to be stupid!'
Adrian
2009-02-10 20:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Given I can lease a Civic Type S GT for £240[1] per month over 24
months, mileage limit of 20000 per year and road tax included, why would
I want to buy one? Is it really this simple when you're not planning on
keeping a car for more than 3 years?
Because there's no easy way to keep it any LESS than that lease period if
you lease it. Also, you'll be paying three arms and two legs for every
mile over that 20k/yr - and don't even ask what any damage or excess wear
will do to your wallet when you hand it back.

Otherwise, you're right - it does make sense.
Ben
2009-02-10 20:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Ben
Given I can lease a Civic Type S GT for £240[1] per month over 24
months, mileage limit of 20000 per year and road tax included, why would
I want to buy one? Is it really this simple when you're not planning on
keeping a car for more than 3 years?
Because there's no easy way to keep it any LESS than that lease period if
you lease it. Also, you'll be paying three arms and two legs for every
mile over that 20k/yr
I've been very conservative on my mileage. My normal commute to work
comes in well under 20k (but above 15k which seems to be the next
bracket down). Over the last 4 years in the same job, I've not
actually done more than 14k on average per year because of holidays,
using the bike, etc.
Post by Adrian
and don't even ask what any damage or excess wear
will do to your wallet when you hand it back.
Well, surely the same applies to a car you own? You come to sell it
you either need to pay to get it fixed up and nice, or you take a hit
of the re-sale value?
--
GSX-R1000K8
Adrian
2009-02-10 20:39:17 UTC
Permalink
and don't even ask what any damage or excess wear will do to your
wallet when you hand it back.
Well, surely the same applies to a car you own? You come to sell it you
either need to pay to get it fixed up and nice, or you take a hit of the
re-sale value?
Sure, but not to the same extent as a lease company'll stiff you...
DanB
2009-02-10 22:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
and don't even ask what any damage or excess wear will do to your
wallet when you hand it back.
Well, surely the same applies to a car you own? You come to sell it you
either need to pay to get it fixed up and nice, or you take a hit of the
re-sale value?
Sure, but not to the same extent as a lease company'll stiff you...
That's not strictly true really. If you have say, curbed a couple of
wheels, a few supermarket dings and maybe a scuffed bumper - they'd be fine
with it. They'll send it to auction and a dealer will buy it and get it
straighened up for pennies.

Whereas no one is going to buy a 3 year old car off you like that because it
looks uncared for and tatty, and a dealer will go ahead and knock a nice
chunk off if you're trading it in.
--
Dan
<empty parking space>
ginge
2009-02-10 20:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
I need to get a new car at some point this year, and given the 20k
miles I do a year, I want to get something reasonably new that can
have 60k stuck on it without batting an eyelid then outed after 3
years or so.[2]
I did the sums on this some time back, and came to the conclusion it's
cheaper to buy something a year old with <10K on the clock, with full
dealer warranty, then flog it 3 yrs later, rinse and repeat. Most of
the depreciation hit is in the first year to 18 months, so someone
else takes the worst hit.
mike. buckley
2009-02-10 21:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by ginge
Post by Ben
I need to get a new car at some point this year, and given the 20k
miles I do a year, I want to get something reasonably new that can
have 60k stuck on it without batting an eyelid then outed after 3
years or so.[2]
I did the sums on this some time back, and came to the conclusion it's
cheaper to buy something a year old with <10K on the clock, with full
dealer warranty, then flog it 3 yrs later, rinse and repeat. Most of
the depreciation hit is in the first year to 18 months, so someone
else takes the worst hit.
Indeed. If I buy the car I'm looking at somebody will have paid over £1
per mile just in depreciation...
--
Mike Buckley
RD350LC2
CB72
http://www.toastyhamster.plus.com
Ben
2009-02-10 21:43:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:53:02 +0000, ginge
Post by ginge
Post by Ben
I need to get a new car at some point this year, and given the 20k
miles I do a year, I want to get something reasonably new that can
have 60k stuck on it without batting an eyelid then outed after 3
years or so.[2]
I did the sums on this some time back, and came to the conclusion it's
cheaper to buy something a year old with <10K on the clock, with full
dealer warranty, then flog it 3 yrs later, rinse and repeat. Most of
the depreciation hit is in the first year to 18 months, so someone
else takes the worst hit.
Ok, but what if you don't have the cash reserve to do that? If you
do, then I completely agree with you, which is why I own my Fiesta.

If I want to buy a year old Civic (for example), I'd need to raise
about 14 grand. So 4 for my Fiesta leaves me with a shortfall of 10
grand.

So eitord a new car, or I borrow the money. 10 grand over 3 years is
going to end up costing 13 making the sums even worse.
--
GSX-R1000K8
Adrian
2009-02-10 22:08:26 UTC
Permalink
If I want to buy a year old Civic (for example), I'd need to raise about
14 grand. So 4 for my Fiesta leaves me with a shortfall of 10 grand.
'course, £4k trade-in for your Fiesta makes it difficult for your Fiesta
to lose £6k more over the next few years, so the high mileage isn't going
to hammer the value THAT badly...
Ben
2009-02-11 09:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
If I want to buy a year old Civic (for example), I'd need to raise about
14 grand. So 4 for my Fiesta leaves me with a shortfall of 10 grand.
'course, £4k trade-in for your Fiesta makes it difficult for your Fiesta
to lose £6k more over the next few years, so the high mileage isn't going
to hammer the value THAT badly...
No, that is a fair point. The ST isn't going to lose much more value.
However, it's starting to get a bit rattly even at 45k so I can't see
myself putting another 60k on it.
--
GSX-R1000K8
ginge
2009-02-10 22:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:53:02 +0000, ginge
Post by ginge
I did the sums on this some time back, and came to the conclusion it's
cheaper to buy something a year old with <10K on the clock, with full
dealer warranty, then flog it 3 yrs later, rinse and repeat. Most of
the depreciation hit is in the first year to 18 months, so someone
else takes the worst hit.
Ok, but what if you don't have the cash reserve to do that? If you
do, then I completely agree with you, which is why I own my Fiesta.
If I want to buy a year old Civic (for example), I'd need to raise
about 14 grand. So 4 for my Fiesta leaves me with a shortfall of 10
grand.
So eitord a new car, or I borrow the money. 10 grand over 3 years is
going to end up costing 13 making the sums even worse.
I was thinking spending less than 14K, just 2 quick examples I spotted
on local dealers websites, picking less interesting cars that
depreciate hard in their early life. Full 3 yr warrantied in both
examples.

08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K

You'll still lose less than buying new in the long run, even factoring
in interest on the extra 4K you'd need, over say 2 years.
SteveH
2009-02-10 22:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed
Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso - Ducati 750SS - <Company car pending>
Bear
2009-02-10 23:02:37 UTC
Permalink
In article <1iuy1ii.1fcv95ba6n509N%***@italiancar.co.uk>, SteveH
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
I can believe it of the Vectra, but is the Focus really that bad?

I've driven better petrol and diesel versions of it and they were both
superb. Is the 1600 really that bad?

PS: That's not a loaded question; I know how good Focus TDi residuals
are - I'm curious as to what's so bad about the 1600.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
SteveH
2009-02-10 23:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
I can believe it of the Vectra, but is the Focus really that bad?
I've driven better petrol and diesel versions of it and they were both
superb. Is the 1600 really that bad?
PS: That's not a loaded question; I know how good Focus TDi residuals
are - I'm curious as to what's so bad about the 1600.
I hired one in Dublin last year. OK, it was an auto, which kind of
blunts things, but it was utterly gutless.

I'm currently kicking around in a 1.6TDCI, which is *significantly*
better. Still really don't like it, but the engine is pretty damned good
for a small, low-tax, diesel.

The 1.6 petrol is the ginger stepchild of the range - and you have to
thrash it like said ginger stepchild to make any kind of forward
progress....
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed
Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso - Ducati 750SS - <Company car pending>
ginge
2009-02-10 23:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
The 1.6 petrol is the ginger stepchild of the range - and you have to
thrash it like said ginger stepchild to make any kind of forward
progress....
"Ouch"
SteveH
2009-02-10 23:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by ginge
Post by SteveH
The 1.6 petrol is the ginger stepchild of the range - and you have to
thrash it like said ginger stepchild to make any kind of forward
progress....
"Ouch"
Lol!

I only realised what I'd done after pressing send.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed
Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso - Ducati 750SS - <Company car pending>
Pip
2009-02-11 00:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
Post by SteveH
The 1.6 petrol is the ginger stepchild of the range - and you have to
thrash it like said ginger stepchild to make any kind of forward
progress....
"Ouch"
Lol!
I only realised what I'd done after pressing send.
You're still not quite dead, but in a world of pain, Stumpy.
--
Pip: B12
Bear
2009-02-10 23:25:04 UTC
Permalink
In article <1iuy2pt.1k8fm9ma1m0h5N%***@italiancar.co.uk>, SteveH
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by Bear
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
I can believe it of the Vectra, but is the Focus really that bad?
I've driven better petrol and diesel versions of it and they were both
superb. Is the 1600 really that bad?
PS: That's not a loaded question; I know how good Focus TDi residuals
are - I'm curious as to what's so bad about the 1600.
I hired one in Dublin last year. OK, it was an auto, which kind of
blunts things, but it was utterly gutless.
I'm currently kicking around in a 1.6TDCI, which is *significantly*
better. Still really don't like it, but the engine is pretty damned good
for a small, low-tax, diesel.
Is it a Mk I or Mk II Focus? The handling of the Mk Is, *if* you have
the bottle, is absolutely remarkable, for a mass-market, family car.
Post by SteveH
The 1.6 petrol is the ginger stepchild of the range - and you have to
thrash it like said ginger stepchild to make any kind of forward
progress....
Cheers for that.

It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were young
... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not stupidly so)
1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that fucking *flew*. It was
painted *gold*. And it was a factory colour. We all loved it, mostly
because it took us home when we were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.

Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern one,
isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame say I.
The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried, which I think
is a shame.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
SteveH
2009-02-10 23:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by SteveH
I'm currently kicking around in a 1.6TDCI, which is *significantly*
better. Still really don't like it, but the engine is pretty damned good
for a small, low-tax, diesel.
Is it a Mk I or Mk II Focus? The handling of the Mk Is, *if* you have
the bottle, is absolutely remarkable, for a mass-market, family car.
56 plate, so a pre-facelift MkII.

It's really uninspiring. No sharper than a MkV Golf, but without the
'quality' feel.

Don't really understand the reason for 3 steering settings:

Comfort: light, no feedback.
Normal: a bit heavier, still no feedback.
Sport: hmmm, that's a bit heavier than it needs to be. No feedback.

I blame it on the electronic, rather than hydraulic, PAS.
Post by Bear
Post by SteveH
The 1.6 petrol is the ginger stepchild of the range - and you have to
thrash it like said ginger stepchild to make any kind of forward
progress....
Cheers for that.
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were young
... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not stupidly so)
1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that fucking *flew*. It was
painted *gold*. And it was a factory colour. We all loved it, mostly
because it took us home when we were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern one,
isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame say I.
The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried, which I think
is a shame.
We had a MkIV Escort with the 1.6 CVH lump on a twin-choke Weber. Put
out, as I recall, 90bhp. Which was respectable for the era. However, it
weighed slightly less thna fuck all.

Contrast with a MkII Focus, which is a lardy barge - I mean, they're
bloody massive - this Focus Estate dwarfs my 156 Estate - but only has
an extra 8bhp in petrol form.

The 1.6TCDI has a handful of extra horses, but a huge amount of extra
torque - up to around 50mph it doesn't feel any slower than my old
Passat 2.0TDI-140.

Obviously, the 156 is significantly quicker than both the petrol and the
diesel Focuses - but it does have 50% more power and, as I recall, a
couple of hundred kilos less weight to haul around.

I ordered my Prius on Friday..... that'll be 'an experience', I suspect.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed
Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso - Ducati 750SS - <Company car pending>
ginge
2009-02-10 23:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
I ordered my Prius on Friday..... that'll be 'an experience', I suspect.
I'm holding out for a more glowing retrospective review of the focus.
Bear
2009-02-10 23:46:26 UTC
Permalink
In article <1iuy3uo.152jk8be4oi5aN%***@italiancar.co.uk>, SteveH
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by Bear
Post by SteveH
I'm currently kicking around in a 1.6TDCI, which is *significantly*
better. Still really don't like it, but the engine is pretty damned good
for a small, low-tax, diesel.
Is it a Mk I or Mk II Focus? The handling of the Mk Is, *if* you have
the bottle, is absolutely remarkable, for a mass-market, family car.
56 plate, so a pre-facelift MkII.
Ah. The woolly one then. Fair enough.
Post by SteveH
It's really uninspiring. No sharper than a MkV Golf, but without the
'quality' feel.
I've only driven one Mk II, and it was a top of the range one, and
easily equal to anything VAG produce, build-wise, but I can well imagine
that, lower down the range, it all went a bit pear-shaped ... one of the
things VAG have always done so well is to make their "lesser" cars as
well built as their top of the range stuff - look at Mk II Golf Drivers
- superb in their day.
Post by SteveH
Comfort: light, no feedback.
Normal: a bit heavier, still no feedback.
Sport: hmmm, that's a bit heavier than it needs to be. No feedback.
I blame it on the electronic, rather than hydraulic, PAS.
I'm massively anti anything computery/"electronic" in the steering
department ... it's steering FFS - I just want to know that 1 "amount"
of X at the wheel equals Y amount of movement at the wheels, same
amount, every time, every speed.
Post by SteveH
Post by Bear
Post by SteveH
The 1.6 petrol is the ginger stepchild of the range - and you have to
thrash it like said ginger stepchild to make any kind of forward
progress....
Cheers for that.
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were young
... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not stupidly so)
1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that fucking *flew*. It was
painted *gold*. And it was a factory colour. We all loved it, mostly
because it took us home when we were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern one,
isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame say I.
The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried, which I think
is a shame.
We had a MkIV Escort with the 1.6 CVH lump on a twin-choke Weber. Put
out, as I recall, 90bhp. Which was respectable for the era. However, it
weighed slightly less thna fuck all.
Exactly.
Post by SteveH
Contrast with a MkII Focus, which is a lardy barge - I mean, they're
bloody massive - this Focus Estate dwarfs my 156 Estate - but only has
an extra 8bhp in petrol form.
And by the time you need the "safety" enhancements to kick in, it's
already too late.
Post by SteveH
The 1.6TCDI has a handful of extra horses, but a huge amount of extra
torque - up to around 50mph it doesn't feel any slower than my old
Passat 2.0TDI-140.
Obviously, the 156 is significantly quicker than both the petrol and the
diesel Focuses - but it does have 50% more power and, as I recall, a
couple of hundred kilos less weight to haul around.
Here's another question, and again *not* loaded ... if Alfa are so
committed to driving pleasure, why has everything mass-market from the
GTV onwards been FWD? I don't get it.
Post by SteveH
I ordered my Prius on Friday..... that'll be 'an experience', I suspect.
Honestly, whatever our differences in the past, I wouldn't wish that on
you :)

I guess you could have a go at seeing how low you can get the mpg?
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
SteveH
2009-02-10 23:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by SteveH
Obviously, the 156 is significantly quicker than both the petrol and the
diesel Focuses - but it does have 50% more power and, as I recall, a
couple of hundred kilos less weight to haul around.
Here's another question, and again *not* loaded ... if Alfa are so
committed to driving pleasure, why has everything mass-market from the
GTV onwards been FWD? I don't get it.
From the 164 onwards, really.

All down to cost - engineering a RWD platform just for Alfa doesn't make
any sense at all for a relatively low volume manufacturer.

It is significantly cheaper to take a Fiat chassis and re-engineer the
suspension (the GTV started this with trick multi-link rear suspension
that had passive steer, and was further enhanced with the 156 which also
got double wishbone front suspension) than it is to design a new car
from the ground-up.

Could get interesting over the next few years, though - as Mr Tata is on
the main Fiat board, so there's a link to Jaguar, and Fiat have gained a
sizeable stake in Chrysler - so I can see the bigger Alfas going RWD in
the not too distant future.

As it is, they have the whole FWD thing pretty well sorted these days -
especially with the 'Q2' differential.
Post by Bear
Post by SteveH
I ordered my Prius on Friday..... that'll be 'an experience', I suspect.
Honestly, whatever our differences in the past, I wouldn't wish that on
you :)
I guess you could have a go at seeing how low you can get the mpg?
Well, my new job means I'm not spending anywhere near as much time in
the car - but have picked up a lot more city centre driving - so an auto
box is more important than just about anything else. There's also the
issue that it'll do 90% of the MPG of the Focus, but petrol is 15p /
litre cheaper - but the company mileage rates are the same for diesel
and hybrids. Added to that, they're about 40% of the tax cost of the
poverty Focus I currently have, but come with lots more toys.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed
Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso - Ducati 750SS - <Company car pending>
Bear
2009-02-11 00:17:48 UTC
Permalink
In article <1iuy4yo.qrsjovilfi3vN%***@italiancar.co.uk>, SteveH
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by Bear
Post by SteveH
Obviously, the 156 is significantly quicker than both the petrol and the
diesel Focuses - but it does have 50% more power and, as I recall, a
couple of hundred kilos less weight to haul around.
Here's another question, and again *not* loaded ... if Alfa are so
committed to driving pleasure, why has everything mass-market from the
GTV onwards been FWD? I don't get it.
From the 164 onwards, really.
All down to cost - engineering a RWD platform just for Alfa doesn't make
any sense at all for a relatively low volume manufacturer.
It is significantly cheaper to take a Fiat chassis and re-engineer the
suspension (the GTV started this with trick multi-link rear suspension
that had passive steer, and was further enhanced with the 156 which also
got double wishbone front suspension) than it is to design a new car
from the ground-up.
Makes sense.
Post by SteveH
Could get interesting over the next few years, though - as Mr Tata is on
the main Fiat board, so there's a link to Jaguar, and Fiat have gained a
sizeable stake in Chrysler -
Eh? Don't Merc own Chrysler? I get so confused as to who owns what ...
has anyone done a "family tree" type graphic?
Post by SteveH
so I can see the bigger Alfas going RWD in
the not too distant future.
Cool. I would applaud that.

I wouldn't buy one, but I would applaud it :)
Post by SteveH
As it is, they have the whole FWD thing pretty well sorted these days -
especially with the 'Q2' differential.
Yes, but it *isn't* the same thing.

The 93 Aero Sport is stunning in its ability to disguise its FWD roots,
and I mean *stunning* - I'm outing it, so if I had any reservations with
its handling you know I'd say something, but it honestly does as good a
job as a FWD car can and then some, and I appreciated it during the
recent snowstorms.

But it isn't a RWD car, and never will be.
Post by SteveH
Post by Bear
Post by SteveH
I ordered my Prius on Friday..... that'll be 'an experience', I suspect.
Honestly, whatever our differences in the past, I wouldn't wish that on
you :)
I guess you could have a go at seeing how low you can get the mpg?
Well, my new job means I'm not spending anywhere near as much time in
the car - but have picked up a lot more city centre driving - so an auto
box is more important than just about anything else. There's also the
issue that it'll do 90% of the MPG of the Focus, but petrol is 15p /
litre cheaper - but the company mileage rates are the same for diesel
and hybrids. Added to that, they're about 40% of the tax cost of the
poverty Focus I currently have, but come with lots more toys.
Keep us posted as to what mpg it *actually* does IRL - everything I've
read about them says the marketing is complete cobblers, and as you
won't be paying for the experience you can afford to tell the truth.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Buzby
2009-02-11 09:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
says...
Eh? Don't Merc own Chrysler? I get so confused as to who owns what
... has anyone done a "family tree" type graphic?
IBW - I think you've got that arse about face
--
Buzby
"There's nothing more dangerous than a resourceful idiot"
Adrian
2009-02-11 09:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzby
Post by Bear
Eh? Don't Merc own Chrysler? I get so confused as to who owns what
... has anyone done a "family tree" type graphic?
IBW - I think you've got that arse about face
It was one of those "merger-of-equals" where one partner (Merc) is more
equal than the other, but they can't admit it because of Local Political
Difficulties which may arise.

But Merc sold Chrysler a while back, anyway. Vulture Capitalists own it
now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DaimlerChrysler#Sale_of_Chrysler

Who-owns-who, about a year ago.
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/03/
thumb1280x1280_2364177540_0e30819365_o.jpg
Bear
2009-02-11 10:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Buzby
Post by Bear
Eh? Don't Merc own Chrysler? I get so confused as to who owns what
... has anyone done a "family tree" type graphic?
IBW - I think you've got that arse about face
It was one of those "merger-of-equals" where one partner (Merc) is more
equal than the other, but they can't admit it because of Local Political
Difficulties which may arise.
But Merc sold Chrysler a while back, anyway. Vulture Capitalists own it
now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DaimlerChrysler#Sale_of_Chrysler
Kinell! They took a bath on that one.

Does anyone else snigger at the name "The Renault-Nissan auto alliance"?
Post by Adrian
Who-owns-who, about a year ago.
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/03/
thumb1280x1280_2364177540_0e30819365_o.jpg
Ah cheers - not the best graphic design ever, but useful, many thanks :)
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Adrian
2009-02-11 10:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Does anyone else snigger at the name "The Renault-Nissan auto alliance"?
I don't think TOG does.
Post by Bear
Post by Adrian
Who-owns-who, about a year ago.
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/03/
thumb1280x1280_2364177540_0e30819365_o.jpg
Ah cheers - not the best graphic design ever, but useful, many thanks :)
You wanna have a try at laying it out more clearly...?
Bear
2009-02-11 10:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Bear
Does anyone else snigger at the name "The Renault-Nissan auto alliance"?
I don't think TOG does.
Post by Bear
Post by Adrian
Who-owns-who, about a year ago.
http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/03/
thumb1280x1280_2364177540_0e30819365_o.jpg
Ah cheers - not the best graphic design ever, but useful, many thanks :)
You wanna have a try at laying it out more clearly...?
I wouldn't be so presumptuous - I'm not a graphic designer.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
ginge
2009-02-10 23:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were young
... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not stupidly so)
1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that fucking *flew*. It was
painted *gold*. And it was a factory colour. We all loved it, mostly
because it took us home when we were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern one,
isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame say I.
The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried, which I think
is a shame.
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
SteveH
2009-02-10 23:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ginge
Post by Bear
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were young
... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not stupidly so)
1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that fucking *flew*. It was
painted *gold*. And it was a factory colour. We all loved it, mostly
because it took us home when we were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern one,
isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame say I.
The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried, which I think
is a shame.
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Alfa 156 TSpark Sportwagon Veloce Selespeed
Alfa 75 TSpark Lusso - Ducati 750SS - <Company car pending>
JackH
2009-02-10 23:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
Post by Bear
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were
young ... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not
stupidly so) 1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that
fucking *flew*. It was painted *gold*. And it was a factory
colour. We all loved it, mostly because it took us home when we
were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern
one, isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame
say I. The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried,
which I think is a shame.
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
Or a 106 GTi.

Clarkson said it, so it must be true.
--
JackH

Rest: 03 VW Passat TDI Sport
Play: 98 Yamaha Fazer FZS600
ginge
2009-02-10 23:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
I'll give you it was faster, but also it was French.

Denied.
CT
2009-02-11 09:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by ginge
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
Indeed. I had two 1.9s. Lovely.
Post by ginge
I'll give you it was faster,
And that's all that matters. And handling, natch.
Post by ginge
but also it was French.
Ah, but French in those days didn't mean crap like it does these days.
Not as much, anyway.
Post by ginge
Denied.
Fuck off, speccy.
--
Chris
Nige
2009-02-10 23:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
Post by Bear
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were young
... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not stupidly so)
1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that fucking *flew*. It was
painted *gold*. And it was a factory colour. We all loved it, mostly
because it took us home when we were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern one,
isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame say I.
The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried, which I think
is a shame.
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
1.6 yes, 1.9 christ no. I had a R5 GTturbo for a few weeks, that was pretty
much insanity in a tincan. Not much, at that time could do it, even
cosworths in the hands of an idiot would just flay about wildly.

Happy days ;)
--
Nige,

Range Rover Td6 Vogue
BMW K1200S
Suzuki GSX-R1000 K3 (off soon)
BMW F800GS
Honda VTR1000F (coming soon)
Wicked Uncle Nigel
2009-02-10 23:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Nige
Post by Nige
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
1.6 yes, 1.9 christ no. I had a R5 GTturbo for a few weeks, that was pretty
much insanity in a tincan.
I should probably drive a "fast" car one of these days. Then I'd know
what the fuck you lot are wibbling on about. AFAICS cars are a device to
keep the cold out and the rain off, and they should do that as
comfortably and with as many toys as possible.

The RAV4 does that admirably, and has stuff that compensates for my
incompetent driving too.

Marvellous, I really recommend it.
--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest"

It's important is that last ell.
Nige
2009-02-10 23:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Nige
Post by Nige
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
1.6 yes, 1.9 christ no. I had a R5 GTturbo for a few weeks, that was pretty
much insanity in a tincan.
I should probably drive a "fast" car one of these days. Then I'd know
what the fuck you lot are wibbling on about. AFAICS cars are a device to
keep the cold out and the rain off, and they should do that as
comfortably and with as many toys as possible.
The RAV4 does that admirably, and has stuff that compensates for my
incompetent driving too.
Marvellous, I really recommend it.
Cars are slow compared to bikes, we all know that. But, they really can
shift if you get a good one. My fav car of all time for all rounders was the
WRX, that was fast, handled a dream & NEVER broke down. 3 years of heaven in
a shell suit. I have had faster cars, but never a better car.
--
Nige,

Range Rover Td6 Vogue
BMW K1200S
Suzuki GSX-R1000 K3 (off soon)
BMW F800GS
Honda VTR1000F (coming soon)
Bear
2009-02-10 23:54:37 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk>, Wicked Uncle
Nigel says...
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Nige
Post by Nige
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
1.6 yes, 1.9 christ no. I had a R5 GTturbo for a few weeks, that was pretty
much insanity in a tincan.
I should probably drive a "fast" car one of these days. Then I'd know
what the fuck you lot are wibbling on about. AFAICS cars are a device to
keep the cold out and the rain off, and they should do that as
comfortably and with as many toys as possible.
If this weekend finally happens, you're welcome to have a bash.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Lozzo
2009-02-11 00:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Nigel says...
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Nige
Post by Nige
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
1.6 yes, 1.9 christ no. I had a R5 GTturbo for a few weeks, that
was pretty much insanity in a tincan.
I should probably drive a "fast" car one of these days. Then I'd
know what the fuck you lot are wibbling on about. AFAICS cars are a
device to keep the cold out and the rain off, and they should do
that as comfortably and with as many toys as possible.
If this weekend finally happens, you're welcome to have a bash.
I could pop over tomorrow night, if he breaks it I have a spare now.
--
Lozzo
ZX-7R P4 (for sale)
CBR600F-W trackbike
SR250 SpazzTrakka,
RD400F, somewhere
I see a bright new future, where chickens can cross the road with no
fear of having their motives questioned
Bear
2009-02-11 00:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lozzo
Post by Bear
Nigel says...
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Nige
Post by Nige
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
1.6 yes, 1.9 christ no. I had a R5 GTturbo for a few weeks, that
was pretty much insanity in a tincan.
I should probably drive a "fast" car one of these days. Then I'd
know what the fuck you lot are wibbling on about. AFAICS cars are a
device to keep the cold out and the rain off, and they should do
that as comfortably and with as many toys as possible.
If this weekend finally happens, you're welcome to have a bash.
I could pop over tomorrow night, if he breaks it I have a spare now.
Are you talking to me or him? The one thing that drive (lovely though
it was, thank you muchly) confirmed to me is that I *so* don't want to
drive fast, mickey-mouse build quality cars again, ever. If I know
Nigel at all I suspect he's of a similar bent, albeit he is, like me,
perfectly happy to have bashes in such motahs. But, much like painted
houris, he might use them, but he wouldn't respect them in the morning.

In fact I'm going to coin a phrase for such vehicles here and now, and
use it again and again ...

... Toytown.

Those things are Toytown. Fun yes, lively yes, of value and interest to
me? - no :)

To own, I want serious cars that are seriously fun.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Wicked Uncle Nigel
2009-02-11 00:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Bear
Post by Bear
Post by Lozzo
Post by Bear
If this weekend finally happens, you're welcome to have a bash.
I could pop over tomorrow night, if he breaks it I have a spare now.
Are you talking to me or him? The one thing that drive (lovely though
it was, thank you muchly) confirmed to me is that I *so* don't want to
drive fast, mickey-mouse build quality cars again, ever. If I know
Nigel at all I suspect he's of a similar bent, albeit he is, like me,
perfectly happy to have bashes in such motahs. But, much like painted
houris, he might use them, but he wouldn't respect them in the morning.
It's actually probably a little simpler than that.

I'm not sure that I've ever driven a car that would really fit into the
"high-performance" slot[1].

And I strongly suspect that, if I ever did, I'd probably wrap it round a
lamppost in fairly short order. That (in part) is why I am so fond of
the RAV4. It has no pretensions to be fast enough that I go for
overtakes that aren't there more than once a week, and when I fuck it
all up mid-corner it sighs and sorts it all out. So far...


[1] Not *quite* true. I did have a brief play (on unsuitable roads) in
the ex-BiL's Marcos. We didn't noticeably die.
--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - "He's hopeless, but he's honest"

It's important is that last ell.
Bear
2009-02-11 01:16:42 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk>, Wicked Uncle
Nigel says...
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Bear
Post by Bear
Post by Lozzo
Post by Bear
If this weekend finally happens, you're welcome to have a bash.
I could pop over tomorrow night, if he breaks it I have a spare now.
Are you talking to me or him? The one thing that drive (lovely though
it was, thank you muchly) confirmed to me is that I *so* don't want to
drive fast, mickey-mouse build quality cars again, ever. If I know
Nigel at all I suspect he's of a similar bent, albeit he is, like me,
perfectly happy to have bashes in such motahs. But, much like painted
houris, he might use them, but he wouldn't respect them in the morning.
It's actually probably a little simpler than that.
I'm not sure that I've ever driven a car that would really fit into the
"high-performance" slot[1].
You so have to. Same as everyone should ride a superbike at some point.

If this weekend comes off I'll cheerfully let you have a bash.
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
And I strongly suspect that, if I ever did, I'd probably wrap it round a
lamppost in fairly short order. That (in part) is why I am so fond of
the RAV4. It has no pretensions to be fast enough that I go for
overtakes that aren't there more than once a week, and when I fuck it
all up mid-corner it sighs and sorts it all out. So far...
Honestly, cars are just for getting from A to B, and bikes are for
performance ...

... er ... except ... decent fast cars are fun *all* of the time, in all
weathers, even stuck in traffic TBH, whereas really fast bikes only
"work" (for me, and I appreciate these are the ramblings of an old,
slow, bloke) when it's dry, and warm, or wet, and warm.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
wessie
2009-02-10 23:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nige
Post by SteveH
Except, maybe, a Pug 205GTI ;-)
I liked my 1.9
Post by Nige
1.6 yes, 1.9 christ no. I had a R5 GTturbo for a few weeks, that was
pretty much insanity in a tincan. Not much, at that time could do it,
even cosworths in the hands of an idiot would just flay about wildly.
<waves>

I parked a RWD Sapphire Cosworth at a jaunty angle in the Forest of Dean
--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS
Bear
2009-02-10 23:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ginge
Post by Bear
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were young
... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not stupidly so)
1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that fucking *flew*. It was
painted *gold*. And it was a factory colour. We all loved it, mostly
because it took us home when we were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern one,
isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame say I.
The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried, which I think
is a shame.
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.

But yes, the principle is a fair one.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Lozzo
2009-02-10 23:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
Post by Bear
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were
young ... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not
stupidly so) 1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that
fucking flew. It was painted gold. And it was a factory colour.
We all loved it, mostly because it took us home when we were
pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh
god knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a
modern one, isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining
rate. Shame say I. The small engined lightweights of old are
dead and buried, which I think is a shame.
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
Have they all dropped a valve now?
--
Lozzo
ZX-7R P4 (for sale)
CBR600F-W trackbike
SR250 SpazzTrakka,
RD400F, somewhere
I see a bright new future, where chickens can cross the road with no
fear of having their motives questioned
Bear
2009-02-11 00:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lozzo
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
Post by Bear
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were
young ... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not
stupidly so) 1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that
fucking flew. It was painted gold. And it was a factory colour.
We all loved it, mostly because it took us home when we were
pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh
god knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a
modern one, isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining
rate. Shame say I. The small engined lightweights of old are
dead and buried, which I think is a shame.
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
Have they all dropped a valve now?
Oh ... arse :)
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Nige
2009-02-10 23:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
Post by Bear
It amazes me sometimes how much cars have changed since we were young
... I can recall a mate's (slightly breathed on, but not stupidly so)
1600 Escort Mk II Ghia Auto (I kid you not) that fucking *flew*. It was
painted *gold*. And it was a factory colour. We all loved it, mostly
because it took us home when we were pissed. But Jesus it was fun.
Nowadays cars have so much "safety" crap on them that they weigh god
knows how much more, such that a 1600 petrol engine, even a modern one,
isn't enough to move one along at an entertaining rate. Shame say I.
The small engined lightweights of old are dead and buried, which I think
is a shame.
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
But yes, the principle is a fair one.
I had one of themt oo, but mine was 16v

It once blew it's oil pressure switch on the motorway & i had no idea for
miles & miles. No problems, & I'll bet it never rusted ;)
--
Nige,

Range Rover Td6 Vogue
BMW K1200S
Suzuki GSX-R1000 K3 (off soon)
BMW F800GS
Honda VTR1000F (coming soon)
Pip
2009-02-11 00:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
Bollocks.

I had my MKI 1.6 8V on a rolling road before and after a 16V (note the
extra valve) MkII and there was fuckall between them. On the road,
similarly - until the uphill overtake section and then I blew his
fucking doors off. Same across the H3 in MK with a /much/ later VR6 -
he couldn't get his massive advantrage (I'll leave that angry typo)
down and lost out after a dozen roundabouts.

OK, so I'd burned twice the initial value of the car in improvements,
but fuck me - it went like a good 'un, went round corners like a good
'un and eventually sold with a profit margin that would make Nige grin
like a good 'un. It was a noisy and uncomfortable little buzzbox,
though - so it had to go in the end, but by God it was a hoot for
eight years.
--
Pip: B12
Bear
2009-02-11 01:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pip
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
Bollocks.
OK, so I'd burned twice the initial value of the car in improvements,
So, to use your terminology, bollocks.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Pip
2009-02-11 01:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by Pip
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
Bollocks.
OK, so I'd burned twice the initial value of the car in improvements,
So, to use your terminology, bollocks.
Yeah, it cost me 500 quid.

A grand later, it had new suspension, a half cage, 14" wheels (and
tyres, natch) a decent exhaust, a quick rack and re-covered seats.
Oh, and I'd put it together properly and fitted a bigger throttle
body, a K&N filter and twin-contact plugs.

110 bhp at the wheels and "150bhp" MkIIs in the mirror. Pfft.

Torque is where it's at, baby.
--
Pip: B12
Bear
2009-02-11 01:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pip
Post by Bear
Post by Pip
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
Bollocks.
OK, so I'd burned twice the initial value of the car in improvements,
So, to use your terminology, bollocks.
Yeah, it cost me 500 quid.
A grand later, it had new suspension, a half cage, 14" wheels (and
tyres, natch) a decent exhaust, a quick rack and re-covered seats.
Oh, and I'd put it together properly and fitted a bigger throttle
body, a K&N filter and twin-contact plugs.
110 bhp at the wheels and "150bhp" MkIIs in the mirror. Pfft.
Torque is where it's at, baby.
I'd love to argue the point, but I prefer Mk Is too, so fuck it, yes, Mk
Is are faster than everything else, all the time :)

PS: You didn't mention that Mk IIs are *slightly* vague, even when new,
whereas decent Mk Is always feel solid and alive, unless their
suspension is totally fucked.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Pip
2009-02-11 01:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by Pip
Post by Bear
Post by Pip
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
Bollocks.
OK, so I'd burned twice the initial value of the car in improvements,
So, to use your terminology, bollocks.
Yeah, it cost me 500 quid.
A grand later, it had new suspension, a half cage, 14" wheels (and
tyres, natch) a decent exhaust, a quick rack and re-covered seats.
Oh, and I'd put it together properly and fitted a bigger throttle
body, a K&N filter and twin-contact plugs.
110 bhp at the wheels and "150bhp" MkIIs in the mirror. Pfft.
Torque is where it's at, baby.
I'd love to argue the point, but I prefer Mk Is too, so fuck it, yes, Mk
Is are faster than everything else, all the time :)
PS: You didn't mention that Mk IIs are *slightly* vague, even when new,
whereas decent Mk Is always feel solid and alive, unless their
suspension is totally fucked.
Fukkit, hamg on, I've lost me specs
--
Pip: B12
Bear
2009-02-11 01:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by Pip
Post by Bear
Post by Pip
Post by Bear
Post by ginge
It's the "Nothing will be as good as a Mk1 Golf GTI" rule.
That falls at the first hurdle - the 15v Mk II is better.
Bollocks.
OK, so I'd burned twice the initial value of the car in improvements,
So, to use your terminology, bollocks.
Yeah, it cost me 500 quid.
A grand later, it had new suspension, a half cage, 14" wheels (and
tyres, natch) a decent exhaust, a quick rack and re-covered seats.
Oh, and I'd put it together properly and fitted a bigger throttle
body, a K&N filter and twin-contact plugs.
110 bhp at the wheels and "150bhp" MkIIs in the mirror. Pfft.
Torque is where it's at, baby.
I'd love to argue the point, but I prefer Mk Is too, so fuck it, yes, Mk
Is are faster than everything else, all the time :)
PS: You didn't mention that Mk IIs are *slightly* vague, even when new,
whereas decent Mk Is always feel solid and alive, unless their
suspension is totally fucked.
Fukkit, hamg on, I've lost me pipe and slippers
I'll wait.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Pip
2009-02-11 02:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by Pip
110 bhp at the wheels and "150bhp" MkIIs in the mirror. Pfft.
Torque is where it's at, baby.
I'd love to argue the point, but I prefer Mk Is too, so fuck it, yes, Mk
Is are faster than everything else, all the time :)
Right - I went for a fag and left me specs on the snow, on the patio
table - and it /hurt/ when i found them and put them back on, ffs.

My Mark I GTi was ... special. I bought it as a reject rotbox that
had been thrashed with no oil and neglected as a runabout for a
mechanic's missus. It came cheap 'cos it was pretty much fucked, but
I needed a car at the time and I'd lusted after her (and the car) for
some time.

I rebuilt it over time, then I did it properly and then I did it again
with proper parts when I had the dosh and another car to run about in,
then it needed rebuilding *again* when the floorpan rotted out -
panels weren't available then, so I fitted pattern ones, then did it
*again* with German parts. I'd built and tuned four-stroke car
engines for *years* but that was the first FI/FWD car I'd considered.
It was, let's not forget, the original GTi, the XR3-beater, the
brainchild of listless VW geeks that saw what could be done with a
pokey engine in a small, light, stiff chassis.

It was an 8-valve 1600 with a 5-speed box (this is important, as they
/were/ the fastest) and the little tail lights, on a W plate. Shite
driving position in the hard to-get-into bucket seat that was always
too close to the wheel so your legs were always in the way, much like
and Alfasud. Spun the rev counter round like a homesick angel though,
guv'nor, and spun the front wheels too when changing from first to
second, and on occasion from second to third on a good day. At that
point you were really going (relatively) and all else ceased to
matter.

The thing about it was, though, that you could plant it at any point
and it would just *go* and then you'd grab another gear and it went
again, and again, until it got to 120 and it wouldn't go no more. The
first thing I did to it was to change the rotor arm for one without
the rev-related cutout on it, then it went from there. Stiffer bushes
when the originals wore out, Boge suspension similarly, then later
Eibach. Wider wheels to take Yokohama stickies, Black Diamond discs
and Mintex M171 pads - hydraulic handbrake and quick rack for
autotesting, hillclimbing and road rallying purposes.

When the engine got tired at 100k, I rebuilt it and balanced and
blueprinted it, to get the best out of it within original specs (for
cheapness). When the gearbox (or the diff, I unremember now) cried
enough, it got a MKII (longer-legged) unit, which enabled spinning
beyond the redline and a likely (guessed at by my mate in a Sierra
Cosbox) 135mph top end.

When the back end rotted out, it got a new hatch, a new German back
panel and a new back axle along with longer suspension turrets and a
set of longer Eibach shocks - and a distinctly hot Mini-like
low-at-the-back stance. When the front seats got tired, they were
recovered with leather bolsters and it got new carpets and
sound-deadening at the same time, 'cos it was getting wearing by then,
buzzing and roaring.

It was repainted three times, each time down to the metal and start
again. It had three sets of headlights, each one better and brighter
than the preceding set. In the end, it had a strut brace and a lower
suspension brace too - but it still cocked the inside rear wheel clear
of the tarmac on a fast corner. I have a picture of it sitting on a
junction on Exmoor, in fast-falling proper snow - it looks /most/
uncomfortable, out of its dry, smooth tarmac element.

Before I left Devon, it had a tune at Tim Stiles Racing in Bridgwater,
where it turned their rolling road at the highest figure they'd ever
seen for a standard MKI. Once we'd fitted a new fuel filter, fuel
accumulator, throttle body and drilled the airbox ;-) It also cost me
a pair of Yokies on the front, 'cos it ripped the tread off the old
ones. It also burned out (literally, melted it) their exhaust sensor
pipe, as there was fuckall between the hot gases coming out of the
head and atmosphere.

It was certainly a revelation to the boy racer community in MK when I
moved there, as their '150bhp' MKII GTis were suddenly outclassed by a
standard shitbox MKI - and as for that glorious day, 'racing' a VR6
across the top of MK from the M1 to the A5, that was just a hoot. He
had me on top end, no question - but I had him on the brakes into
every one of (guesses) ten roundabouts and on acceleration out of
them, too - he was burning rubber, I was round the outside of him.

It was in this car, once I'd moved to Cheshire, that I discovered
bikes - I was going up the Cat and Fiddle, about as fast as I wanted
to go - when a boy on a Gixer 750 went round the *outside* of me. I
gave it everything and held him up to the next corner - and got a bit
back on the brakes, but then he went away again on acceleration out of
it. This repeated until he was a corner in front, then two, then
three - when we got to the pub he was halfway down a fag and I had to
wring my shreddies out. Cunt. And he had the temerity to exit half
the corners on one wheel, while I was on two at least. Cunt.
Post by Bear
PS: You didn't mention that Mk IIs are *slightly* vague, even when new,
whereas decent Mk Is always feel solid and alive, unless their
suspension is totally fucked.
My missus had a MKII - it was overweight, slow to turn in and rubbery.
Exactly like her, as it happens.

The previous (to the missus) gf had a MKII Fiesta XR2 - my long-time
mate had a MKI that we road rallied - the MKI went exactly where you
wanted it to go, precisely on the apex, nice and neutral. It talked
to the driver and did what the driver wanted. The MKII was
theoretically faster, but carried more weight, rolled more, and wanked
about under stress because of all the rubber in the suspension 'to
make it smoother'. Gimme the MKI all day long - noisier, coarser,
more tiring - but so responsive and 'alive' to input.

Happens to all cars, I guess. They make a beaut, then tame it when it
becomes popular. The current Golf must weigh three times what my MKI
weighed, and is twice the size. Same with the Fiesta, ffs - and
Vauxhall - I recall the MKI Astra, a well-balanced, well-tuneable hot
little hatch. The current Astra is as big as my Vectra and nearly as
heavy.
--
Pip: B12
Pete M
2009-02-11 02:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pip
Happens to all cars, I guess. They make a beaut, then tame it when it
becomes popular. The current Golf must weigh three times what my MKI
weighed, and is twice the size. Same with the Fiesta, ffs - and
Vauxhall - I recall the MKI Astra, a well-balanced, well-tuneable hot
little hatch. The current Astra is as big as my Vectra and nearly as
heavy.
A diesel Focus weighs about the same as a 2.8iL Mk2 Granada...
--
Pete M - OMF#9

BMW 325i SE Touring
Range Rover V8 Turbo
Escort Diesel Van (Woo, stylish)

"Wait! We can't stop here, this is Bat Country"
Pip
2009-02-11 02:54:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:48:09 +0000, Pete M
Post by Pete M
Post by Pip
Happens to all cars, I guess. They make a beaut, then tame it when it
becomes popular. The current Golf must weigh three times what my MKI
weighed, and is twice the size. Same with the Fiesta, ffs - and
Vauxhall - I recall the MKI Astra, a well-balanced, well-tuneable hot
little hatch. The current Astra is as big as my Vectra and nearly as
heavy.
A diesel Focus weighs about the same as a 2.8iL Mk2 Granada...
You utter cunt. That took me the best part of an hour(1) to type -
and you read it in four fucking minutes!

1. Including a fag, I s'pose - and a coffee. I might have had a piss
halfway through, too - and allow five minutes for head-scratching and
memory-surfing ... and ten minutes sorting out the post-pub-and-pool
match typos.
--
Pip: B12
Bear
2009-02-11 02:59:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pip
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:48:09 +0000, Pete M
Post by Pete M
Post by Pip
Happens to all cars, I guess. They make a beaut, then tame it when it
becomes popular. The current Golf must weigh three times what my MKI
weighed, and is twice the size. Same with the Fiesta, ffs - and
Vauxhall - I recall the MKI Astra, a well-balanced, well-tuneable hot
little hatch. The current Astra is as big as my Vectra and nearly as
heavy.
A diesel Focus weighs about the same as a 2.8iL Mk2 Granada...
You utter cunt. That took me the best part of an hour(1) to type -
and you read it in four fucking minutes!
1. Including a fag, I s'pose - and a coffee. I might have had a piss
halfway through, too - and allow five minutes for head-scratching and
memory-surfing ... and ten minutes sorting out the post-pub-and-pool
match typos.
It was worth the effort though. I do so like your "the way we were"
petrolhead posts :)

Every time I think I've finally grown up, they bring me crashing back
down to earth and remind me what a keen little bunny I used to be.

Which is good, in case you didn't realise.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Pete M
2009-02-11 03:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pip
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:48:09 +0000, Pete M
Post by Pete M
Post by Pip
Happens to all cars, I guess. They make a beaut, then tame it when it
becomes popular. The current Golf must weigh three times what my MKI
weighed, and is twice the size. Same with the Fiesta, ffs - and
Vauxhall - I recall the MKI Astra, a well-balanced, well-tuneable hot
little hatch. The current Astra is as big as my Vectra and nearly as
heavy.
A diesel Focus weighs about the same as a 2.8iL Mk2 Granada...
You utter cunt. That took me the best part of an hour(1) to type -
and you read it in four fucking minutes!
Oh yes. You wouldn't be interested in my immaculate Mk1 GTi 1.8 would
you? Tis nice, original other than high bollock tappets. 'Y' reg, black,
rebuilt by a VW mastertech using all proper VW bits.
Post by Pip
1. Including a fag, I s'pose - and a coffee. I might have had a piss
halfway through, too - and allow five minutes for head-scratching and
memory-surfing ... and ten minutes sorting out the post-pub-and-pool
match typos.
You spoil us.
--
Pete M - OMF#9

BMW 325i SE Touring
Range Rover V8 Turbo
Escort Diesel Van (Woo, stylish)

"Wait! We can't stop here, this is Bat Country"
Pip
2009-02-11 03:20:29 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 03:00:52 +0000, Pete M
Post by Pete M
Post by Pip
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:48:09 +0000, Pete M
Post by Pete M
Post by Pip
Happens to all cars, I guess. They make a beaut, then tame it when it
becomes popular. The current Golf must weigh three times what my MKI
weighed, and is twice the size. Same with the Fiesta, ffs - and
Vauxhall - I recall the MKI Astra, a well-balanced, well-tuneable hot
little hatch. The current Astra is as big as my Vectra and nearly as
heavy.
A diesel Focus weighs about the same as a 2.8iL Mk2 Granada...
You utter cunt. That took me the best part of an hour(1) to type -
and you read it in four fucking minutes!
Oh yes. You wouldn't be interested in my immaculate Mk1 GTi 1.8 would
you? Tis nice, original other than high bollock tappets. 'Y' reg, black,
rebuilt by a VW mastertech using all proper VW bits.
Pfft. Big back lights. PFF motah ;-)

Then I'd have to 'print it - nah, wouldn't be worth it, have to have a
warm 2 litre, wouldn't it - then drop it and widen it ... it wouldn't
be the same.
Post by Pete M
Post by Pip
1. Including a fag, I s'pose - and a coffee. I might have had a piss
halfway through, too - and allow five minutes for head-scratching and
memory-surfing ... and ten minutes sorting out the post-pub-and-pool
match typos.
You spoil us.
You're *so* not worth it. I just run off at the gob/keyboard.
--
Pip: B12
Bear
2009-02-11 02:55:23 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, Pip says...

<SNIP LOVELY TALES>
Post by Pip
Happens to all cars, I guess. They make a beaut, then tame it when it
becomes popular. The current Golf must weigh three times what my MKI
weighed, and is twice the size. Same with the Fiesta, ffs - and
Vauxhall - I recall the MKI Astra, a well-balanced, well-tuneable hot
little hatch. The current Astra is as big as my Vectra and nearly as
heavy.
That's why I prefer big saloons these days - there are no "normal",
lightweight cars anymore (ok a few extremes but YKWIM) ... cars are
burdened with heaps of safety cobblers, which ironically make them more
likely to crash, not less, IMHO at least [1]

[1] younger folk at the office seem to have far more, heavier, accidents
than I ever recall from my youth [2]. I think it's possible that an
800Kg car with no "safety" devices teaches a person how to drive, and
makes them less likely to have an accident, whereas a 1,500Kg modern car
wraps them in cotton wool and continues to do so as they pile backwards
off the road into a tree ... they survive, but the only winners are
their insurance companies
[2] to be fair, I didn't actually have many proper car accidents until
way into my 30s ... I did my crashing on bikes
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Ben
2009-02-11 09:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
I can believe it of the Vectra, but is the Focus really that bad?
The Focus is very good, just boring.

I'd be tempted by an ST, but not exactly cheap to run.
--
GSX-R1000K8
Bear
2009-02-11 10:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
I can believe it of the Vectra, but is the Focus really that bad?
The Focus is very good, just boring.
I'd be tempted by an ST, but not exactly cheap to run.
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
CT
2009-02-11 10:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
The Focus is very good, just boring.
I'd be tempted by an ST, but not exactly cheap to run.
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
That's what I was thinking, but it is difficult. As someone else
looking around for a new[1] motor, I'mn struggling to find anything
that is a) practical, b) withing budget and most importantly c) floats
my boat.

I guess I'm just going to have to spend the weekend going around to
various dealers and having test drives. Oh, the hardship... :o)

[1] Both new to me and new or nearly new.
--
Chris
Bear
2009-02-11 10:31:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by CT
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
The Focus is very good, just boring.
I'd be tempted by an ST, but not exactly cheap to run.
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
That's what I was thinking, but it is difficult. As someone else
looking around for a new[1] motor, I'mn struggling to find anything
that is a) practical, b) withing budget and most importantly c) floats
my boat.
I guess I'm just going to have to spend the weekend going around to
various dealers and having test drives. Oh, the hardship... :o)
TBH I find faffing about with test drives a bit of a pain.

It depends on the salesdroid, to an extent.
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Ben
2009-02-11 10:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
I can believe it of the Vectra, but is the Focus really that bad?
The Focus is very good, just boring.
I'd be tempted by an ST, but not exactly cheap to run.
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
A little, yes.

Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.

I might just get another Fiesta ST when the new shape on comes out.
--
GSX-R1000K8
CT
2009-02-11 10:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
A little, yes.
Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.
The new Golf's been getting good reviews. You need the 1.4TFSI GT for
that kind of performance and that's getting to the pricey end of the
scale.
--
Chris
Ben
2009-02-11 10:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by CT
Post by Ben
A little, yes.
Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.
The new Golf's been getting good reviews. You need the 1.4TFSI GT for
that kind of performance and that's getting to the pricey end of the
scale.
Yeah, Golfs and Audis seem to be pretty expensive leases. Arund
350-400 quid for a Golf.
--
GSX-R1000K8
Colin Irvine
2009-02-11 11:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by CT
Post by Ben
A little, yes.
Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.
The new Golf's been getting good reviews. You need the 1.4TFSI GT for
that kind of performance and that's getting to the pricey end of the
scale.
Golfs have been getting good reviews for years, and I can see why.
We've been doing a lot of searching over the last couple of months,
and pick up a three-year-old Golf tomorrow (1.6 SE). It's not
particularly quick off the mark, but otherwise seems to tick every
box. Well worth the extra cost over the equivalent Focus.
--
Colin Irvine
ZZR1400 BOF#33 BONY#34 COFF#06 BHaLC#5
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk
CT
2009-02-11 11:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colin Irvine
Golfs have been getting good reviews for years, and I can see why.
We've been doing a lot of searching over the last couple of months,
and pick up a three-year-old Golf tomorrow (1.6 SE). It's not
particularly quick off the mark, but otherwise seems to tick every
box. Well worth the extra cost over the equivalent Focus.
Yes, I drove one before I got my A3. The 1.6 was too underpowered for
me[1] so I ended up with the 2.0 Audi instead.

Trouble is, they just don't do it for me. The new Mk6 looks to have
taken it a step further from the reviews, but I agree with Ben in that
I want to look out the window at a car I've spent a lot of money on and
think "that's a lovely car" and I don't think that the Golf will have
that effect.

[1] I had a 167bhp car at the time.
--
Chris
Bear
2009-02-11 10:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
says...
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
I can believe it of the Vectra, but is the Focus really that bad?
The Focus is very good, just boring.
I'd be tempted by an ST, but not exactly cheap to run.
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
A little, yes.
Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.
Shame you don't want my Aero - good car! Plenty cheapness! :)
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Ben
2009-02-11 10:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
A little, yes.
Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.
Shame you don't want my Aero - good car! Plenty cheapness! :)
You know what? I would because I like them but it's too big. My
drive will only take two smaller cars, and I won't leave them on the
road.
--
GSX-R1000K8
Bear
2009-02-11 10:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
A little, yes.
Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.
Shame you don't want my Aero - good car! Plenty cheapness! :)
You know what? I would because I like them but it's too big. My
drive will only take two smaller cars, and I won't leave them on the
road.
<salesdroid mode>

It's got parking sensors at the rear, meaning you can get it *really*
close to the other car if you choose to [1], and it's not *that* big -
it's a 93 remember, not a 95.

[1] this is the first car I've ever owned that has parking sensors and I
think they're such a good idea I'm going to have aftermarket ones fitted
to my next car, as it sadly doesn't have them - assuming I ever get my
hands on it [2]
[2] I don't know if this is normal on all parking sensor equipped cars,
but the Saab system changes beeps when you're exactly the right distance
away from the obstacle to be able to easily get into the boot, then
changes again to a solid beeeeeep when you're *really* close, if you
don't need boot access. I think that's rather clever
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Ben
2009-02-11 10:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
A little, yes.
Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.
Shame you don't want my Aero - good car! Plenty cheapness! :)
You know what? I would because I like them but it's too big. My
drive will only take two smaller cars, and I won't leave them on the
road.
<salesdroid mode>
It's got parking sensors at the rear, meaning you can get it *really*
close to the other car if you choose to [1], and it's not *that* big -
it's a 93 remember, not a 95.
My drive is a 'Y' shape. Both cars need to sit on the top branches of
the 'Y' IYSWIM and need to be small enough so that both can get out
without moving the other.
--
GSX-R1000K8
Bear
2009-02-11 11:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
Post by Ben
Post by Bear
"You want the moon on a stick" :)
A little, yes.
Gist is, I want a Focus/Golf/A3/Civic sized car, that'll do 0-60 in
8ish seconds, look good, return good fuel economy, not cost the earth
to tax and insurance, and is reasonably fun to drive as I spend a lot
of time in it.
Shame you don't want my Aero - good car! Plenty cheapness! :)
You know what? I would because I like them but it's too big. My
drive will only take two smaller cars, and I won't leave them on the
road.
<salesdroid mode>
It's got parking sensors at the rear, meaning you can get it *really*
close to the other car if you choose to [1], and it's not *that* big -
it's a 93 remember, not a 95.
My drive is a 'Y' shape. Both cars need to sit on the top branches of
the 'Y' IYSWIM and need to be small enough so that both can get out
without moving the other.
Ah right ... with you now. Shame - you'd have loved it, and I'm always
utterly amazed how good the fuel economy is for a fairly rapid car - on
motorway runs 37-39 mpg is do-able if you're careful.

And even when travelling FFO it still rarely dips much below 25 mpg ...
on the recent Normandy trip (its swan song, so I was really on it) it
managed something ITRO 22 mpg at a constant 130, which I thought was
superb. My old Beemer 740 V8 did about 10 mpg at the same speed :)
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
ginge
2009-02-10 23:04:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by SteveH
Post by ginge
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
Both heaps of crap, with residuals to match, though.
True, but I'm still going with crap residuals not being bad if the
bulk of the loss is somebody else's early on. Ignore the fact it's a
bland, boring repmobile and for illustration let's take the vectra as
an example. It's already lost a large lump of the original cost, so
you'd buy it for 7.5, run it for 3 yrs, sell it for an easy 3.5K.

No matter what the % residual values are, it's actually only going to
cost ~£1350/yr, which is cheap for a motorway mile muncher.
Ben
2009-02-11 09:58:03 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:33:46 +0000, ginge
Post by ginge
Post by Ben
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:53:02 +0000, ginge
Post by ginge
I did the sums on this some time back, and came to the conclusion it's
cheaper to buy something a year old with <10K on the clock, with full
dealer warranty, then flog it 3 yrs later, rinse and repeat. Most of
the depreciation hit is in the first year to 18 months, so someone
else takes the worst hit.
Ok, but what if you don't have the cash reserve to do that? If you
do, then I completely agree with you, which is why I own my Fiesta.
If I want to buy a year old Civic (for example), I'd need to raise
about 14 grand. So 4 for my Fiesta leaves me with a shortfall of 10
grand.
So eitord a new car, or I borrow the money. 10 grand over 3 years is
going to end up costing 13 making the sums even worse.
I was thinking spending less than 14K, just 2 quick examples I spotted
on local dealers websites, picking less interesting cars that
depreciate hard in their early life. Full 3 yr warrantied in both
examples.
08 1.8 1.8 Vectra 15K miles = 7.5K
07 1.6 Focus 10K miles = 8.5K
I agree there are cars out there that are cheap, but they're a big
fucking boring aren't they?
--
GSX-R1000K8
ginge
2009-02-11 10:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
I agree there are cars out there that are cheap, but they're a big
fucking boring aren't they?
Well, yeah. But so is commuting.

I've come to the conclusion that a comfy seat, a decent stereo and
cruise control are probably the 3 top requirements in my next car, as
given the roads these days much of the time will be spent either sat
in traffic, or in variable speed limits.
Ben
2009-02-11 10:24:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:15:06 +0000, ginge
Post by ginge
Post by Ben
I agree there are cars out there that are cheap, but they're a big
fucking boring aren't they?
Well, yeah. But so is commuting.
I've come to the conclusion that a comfy seat, a decent stereo and
cruise control are probably the 3 top requirements in my next car, as
given the roads these days much of the time will be spent either sat
in traffic, or in variable speed limits.
Very true, but I still like to be able to look out the front window
and think "That's a nice car, glad I bought it". Makes me feel like
I'm not just earning my money to exist.
--
GSX-R1000K8
ogden
2009-02-11 10:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben
I still like to be able to look out the front window
and think "That's a nice car, glad I bought it". Makes me feel like
I'm not just earning my money to exist.
You're not. You're earning so your wife and kid can exist.
--
ogden

RGV250
GSXR1000
Ben
2009-02-11 10:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ogden
Post by Ben
I still like to be able to look out the front window
and think "That's a nice car, glad I bought it". Makes me feel like
I'm not just earning my money to exist.
You're not. You're earning so your wife and kid can exist.
Heh, not far off.
--
GSX-R1000K8
Switters
2009-02-11 11:06:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by ginge
I've come to the conclusion that a comfy seat, a decent stereo and
cruise control are probably the 3 top requirements in my next car
I'd probably swap the cruise control for an auto-box (as far as top 3 are
concerned). I'm not on long cruises for any stretch of time, and an auto
would mean I didn't have to change gears constantly.
Bear
2009-02-11 11:16:28 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@85.214.105.209>, Switters
says...
Post by Switters
Post by ginge
I've come to the conclusion that a comfy seat, a decent stereo and
cruise control are probably the 3 top requirements in my next car
I'd probably swap the cruise control for an auto-box (as far as top 3 are
concerned). I'm not on long cruises for any stretch of time, and an auto
would mean I didn't have to change gears constantly.
For me, cruise control is less about long motorway journeys and more
about not letting my speed creep up in camera controlled stretches like
roadworks and suchlike.

I'm having an auto next though - it's funny; whenever I have a manual I
want an auto next, and whenever I have an auto I want a manual next.

(cue Ace popping up and blethering about his DSG box) :)
--
2002 Yamaha R1
Saab Aero Sport
Everything I write is merely my personal opinion - it's not fact unless
I claim it to be, and it's not verified unless I quote a source for it.
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...