[OT][beer] Brewing..

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing?

Yes thanks.

Post by des
It's something I've wanted to do
for years..

Are you sure? You will become a magnet for untold numbers of piss heads
looking for a free beer.

--
steve auvache

des

2011-02-11 19:23:09 UTC

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing?

Yes thanks.

Tell all, dad.

Post by des
It's something I've wanted to do
for years..

Are you sure? You will become a magnet for untold numbers of piss heads
looking for a free beer.

Most of my friends are back in France, so that's unlikely.

So what do I need to start?

--
des
'Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds'
(Albert Einstein)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

steve auvache

2011-02-11 19:38:17 UTC

Post by des
Most of my friends are back in France, so that's unlikely.

You *will* acquire new friends, drunks are like that.

Post by des
So what do I need to start?

The usual quantity for home brewing is 5 gallons.

You will need a container large enough to hold that, a small plastic
dustbin with lid is commonly used but old food containers such as chip oil
ones can be used.

Stuff to put it in after. A purpose built 5 gallon plastic barrel is the
thing if you want draught. For bottled beer you need to find old beer
bottles. Anything else may not take the pressure.

Malt extract and hops and sugar and yeast.

All of this is available in kit form

This article is a bit ott for a raw beginner but gives a couple of links
for you to jump off from

http://www.sarahmelamed.com/2010/01/home-brewed-beer/

--
steve auvache

des

2011-02-11 20:13:36 UTC

Post by des
Most of my friends are back in France, so that's unlikely.

You *will* acquire new friends, drunks are like that.

No, I'm not part of the 'popularity = number of friends' cabal prevalent on
UKRM. Most people think 'mates' are friends; or 'acquaintances' with whom
they have a pint after work. The difference between 'pote' and 'ami' in
French. I have probably three very close friends, two of whom I've known
for over forty years. 'mates' don't get invited to our home until they're
upgraded to 'friend', and the last time that happened was in 2004 at the
IUFM.

Plus, as mentioned, I don't suffer fools gladly.

Anyway, we digress..

Post by des
So what do I need to start?

Fuck, I don't even know what 'five gallon wotsit' is in Hebrew.

Post by steve auvache
Stuff to put it in after. A purpose built 5 gallon plastic barrel is the
thing if you want draught. For bottled beer you need to find old beer
bottles. Anything else may not take the pressure.

I fear this is going to have be done via mail order.

Post by steve auvache
Malt extract and hops and sugar and yeast.
All of this is available in kit form

That's the thing, you can buy beer kits in the big supermarkets in Tel
Aviv, but I don't want to start with a kit. I want the raw ingredients
sitting in front of me, a book on my lap, and I go 'right .....first...'

Post by steve auvache
This article is a bit ott for a raw beginner but gives a couple of links
for you to jump off from
http://www.sarahmelamed.com/2010/01/home-brewed-beer/

Ta.

--
des
'Television has made dictatorship impossible, but democracy unbearable'
(Shimon Perez (1923 - ))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

Scraggy

2011-02-11 19:41:47 UTC

Post by des
So what do I need to start?

http://tinyurl.com/26y3bxw

--
I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as
members. Groucho Marx

des

2011-02-11 20:15:29 UTC

Post by Scraggy

Post by des
So what do I need to start?

http://tinyurl.com/26y3bxw

[ ] thanks for that
[ ] FOYRNB
[ ] why do you hate Jews???

--
des
'Two great European narcotics: alcohol and Christianity'
(Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

Scraggy

2011-02-12 15:20:49 UTC

Post by Scraggy

Post by des
So what do I need to start?

http://tinyurl.com/26y3bxw

[ ] thanks for that
[ ] FOYRNB
[ ] why do you hate Jews???

[ ] NP
[ ] MWHID
[ ] You're Jewish?

--
I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as
members. Groucho Marx

Pip Luscher

2011-02-11 19:38:13 UTC

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing? It's something I've wanted to do
for years..

Haven't done it for years, but:

Cleanliness, above all else. Sterilize everything.

Expect a damp steamy kitchen when boiling up the mix.

If you're bottling, don't waste time on those crown corkers that need
hammering: waste of time and good^wadequate beer.

Patience and temperature control help.

I've tasted some great home brews but personally, no matter what I
tried, could never quite brew beer that didn't have at least a slight
yeasty tang, except once, when I did a simple Pale Ale that was
lovely.

--
-Pip

des

2011-02-11 20:04:19 UTC

Post by Pip Luscher

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing? It's something I've wanted to do
for years..

Cleanliness, above all else. Sterilize everything.

Check.

Post by Pip Luscher
Expect a damp steamy kitchen when boiling up the mix.

Our windows are rarely closed.

Post by Pip Luscher
If you're bottling, don't waste time on those crown corkers that need
hammering: waste of time and good^wadequate beer.
Patience and temperature control help.

My reputation is not one of a patient man.

Post by Pip Luscher
I've tasted some great home brews but personally, no matter what I
tried, could never quite brew beer that didn't have at least a slight
yeasty tang, except once, when I did a simple Pale Ale that was
lovely.

This is the thing: a mate in Blighty who tried it, said the result was
invariably 'CBRN Hazard' quality.

--
des
'_The Guardian_. Wrong about everything. All the time'
(Anon)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

steve auvache

2011-02-11 20:18:26 UTC

Post by Pip Luscher
Patience and temperature control help.

My reputation is not one of a patient man.

You will need to get some from somewhere.

Once you are up and running it is easy as you will always have the batch
before last to drink today but the first couple really do require that you
are able to just sit and look at it.

Post by des
This is the thing: a mate in Blighty who tried it, said the result was
invariably 'CBRN Hazard' quality.

Seriously now, aim for drinkable quality first and then add specific
gravity once you have mastered that.

In fact when I was doing it I was noted for my not actually very strong
but otherwise very palatable beer.

--
steve auvache

des

2011-02-11 20:23:50 UTC

Post by Pip Luscher
Patience and temperature control help.

My reputation is not one of a patient man.

You will need to get some from somewhere.

That's not going to be easy.

Post by steve auvache
Once you are up and running it is easy as you will always have the batch
before last to drink today but the first couple really do require that you
are able to just sit and look at it.

Oh, _that_ kind of patience? That's not a problem.

Post by des
This is the thing: a mate in Blighty who tried it, said the result was
invariably 'CBRN Hazard' quality.

Seriously now, aim for drinkable quality first and then add specific
gravity once you have mastered that.
In fact when I was doing it I was noted for my not actually very strong
but otherwise very palatable beer.

Ideally, 8-9°. Is that possible? Easy? Expensive?

--
des
'Basically, my wife was immature. I'd be at home in the bath, and
she'd come in and sink my boats'
(Woody Allen (1935 - ))

steve auvache

2011-02-11 20:56:12 UTC

Post by des
Ideally, 8-9°. Is that possible? Easy? Expensive?

It is as easy to make strong bad beer as it is to make weak bad beer.

Brew something that you like. Light or dark, bitter or mild, ultimately
the choice is dictated by your own palate. The beer I used to brew for my
own use was a 4-5% light coloured bitter made from English Malt flavoured
with Lager hops. The Mother Of Them All had her own personal barrel of 6%
Stout and Cider. Visitors got the experimental liquid brain damage..

Expensive is relative but it is a bit like photography, there is always
another piece of *essential* kit that you simply must buy.

--
steve auvache

des

2011-02-11 21:05:41 UTC

Post by des
Ideally, 8-9°. Is that possible? Easy? Expensive?

It is as easy to make strong bad beer as it is to make weak bad beer.
Brew something that you like. Light or dark, bitter or mild, ultimately
the choice is dictated by your own palate. The beer I used to brew for my
own use was a 4-5% light coloured bitter made from English Malt flavoured
with Lager hops. The Mother Of Them All had her own personal barrel of 6%
Stout and Cider. Visitors got the experimental liquid brain damage..

A favourite tipple back in the home country was 9° 1664. Then there's
Chimay... Beer here is like pisswater.

Post by steve auvache
Expensive is relative but it is a bit like photography, there is always
another piece of *essential* kit that you simply must buy.

OK, thanks for the pointers.

--
des
'The first requisite of civilisation is that of justice'
(Sigmund Freud (1856 - 1939))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

Nige

2011-02-12 10:57:53 UTC

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing? It's something I've wanted to do
for years..

I know one thing, it always tastes like shit & takes up half your house.

Dont bother.

des

2011-02-12 11:09:16 UTC

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing? It's something I've wanted to
do for years..

I know one thing, it always tastes like shit & takes up half your house.
Dont bother.

I'm expecting the first say, five brews to be borderline life-threatening,
sure. But if I keep at it, there's no reason why I can't be sitting of a
Shabbat with a bottle of 'Hatikva Home Brew' in my hand...

--
des
'_The Guardian_. Wrong about everything. All the time'
(Anon)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

Nige

2011-02-12 11:16:34 UTC

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing? It's something I've wanted to
do for years..

I know one thing, it always tastes like shit & takes up half your house.
Dont bother.

Dont they sell beer in shops?

seriously, you'll spend a few quid & end up chucking it out.

Every pint of homebrew i have ever drank gave me instant shits too.

wessie

2011-02-12 14:03:46 UTC

Post by des
I'm expecting the first say, five brews to be borderline
life-threatening, sure. But if I keep at it, there's no reason why I
can't be sitting of a Shabbat with a bottle of 'Hatikva Home Brew' in
my hand...

Dont they sell beer in shops?

do keep up - they do but it's shit. Considering des spent years in France
and rates Kronenberg as "good" then the Isreali stuff must be aweful.

Post by Nige
seriously, you'll spend a few quid & end up chucking it out.
Every pint of homebrew i have ever drank gave me instant shits too.

Aclimatisation takes a while, just like introducing "live" yogurt into
one's diet. Like real ale, homebrew will have living yeast cells and it
takes a while for the gut flora to adapt if you are one of those poofs who
only drink pasteurised products sold in supermarkets or British "lagers"
sold in pubs.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

Nige

2011-02-12 14:51:31 UTC

Dont they sell beer in shops?

do keep up - they do but it's shit. Considering des spent years in France
and rates Kronenberg as "good" then the Isreali stuff must be aweful.

Post by Nige
seriously, you'll spend a few quid & end up chucking it out.
Every pint of homebrew i have ever drank gave me instant shits too.

But it still tastes like shit

wessie

2011-02-12 15:21:26 UTC

Post by wessie
Aclimatisation takes a while, just like introducing "live" yogurt
into one's diet. Like real ale, homebrew will have living yeast cells
and it takes a while for the gut flora to adapt if you are one of
those poofs who only drink pasteurised products sold in supermarkets
or British "lagers" sold in pubs.

But it still tastes like shit

Many beers made by professional brewers taste horrible. Just because your
experience of home brew is not good does not mean you can generalise to all
home brew. As Auvache says, once you have got the relatively simple process
sorted, it is possible to make some very palatable beers. The main trick is
to leave the beer for quite some time to mature as this ensures the
secondary fermentation completes and that most of the yeast cells die off.
Like wine, beer will change flavour with age as the chemical composition
changes through natural processes. I used to make some cracking beers when
I was a teenager, admittedly from kits but the Boots brown ale in
particular was superb.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

steve auvache

2011-02-12 16:59:32 UTC

But it still tastes like shit

Your are flogging a dead horse mate. Anyone who is inclined to begin a
sentence with "Thy knows" or "ave thy sin mah whippet" can hardly be
expected to understand the finer things of life, such as flavour.

--
steve auvache

wessie

2011-02-12 18:01:02 UTC

Post by steve auvache
Your are flogging a dead horse mate. Anyone who is inclined to begin
a sentence with "Thy knows" or "ave thy sin mah whippet" can hardly be
expected to understand the finer things of life, such as flavour.

It's a watershed problem, rather than latitude. Those west of the Pennines
seem to be able to make excellent ales. I've already mentioned Thwaites
this week and the Jennings brewery in Darren's county is pretty good (or
was, not sure since the Black Country boys took over). Robinsons in
Stockport is another excellent brewery.

As you say, cross the Pennines to where Websters, John Smiths & Tetleys is
made and you find mostly bland piss.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

steve auvache

2011-02-12 18:17:16 UTC

It's a watershed problem, rather than latitude.

I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap. In terms of properly made beer from
the East we have Ridleys, if you like your bitter bitter with a capital
B[1] and Shepard Neame if you want it a little more malt flavoured from
sarf of the river..

Of course I am talking about proper public bar beer drinkers beer here not
the high octane special brews for saloon bar poseurs working there way
through the camra catalogue.

[1] Although they do (did?) make a quite nice mild which was commonly sold
from a small wooden barrel parked on the bar and not lifted from some dank
cellar under nitrogen pressure.

--
steve auvache

wessie

2011-02-12 18:26:37 UTC

On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:01:02 +0000 (UTC), wessie

Post by steve auvache
Your are flogging a dead horse mate. Anyone who is inclined to
begin a sentence with "Thy knows" or "ave thy sin mah whippet" can
hardly be expected to understand the finer things of life, such as
flavour.

It's a watershed problem, rather than latitude.

of SN, I had to wait 30 mins for a train yesterday so popped next door for
a Bishop's Finger in the Great Western. Quite nice but markedly different
to the bottled version.

BTW, Ridleys is no more. Consumed by Tolly cobbold and then Greedy King,
who closed the brewery as they did with Moreland, Ruddles et al. I like the
beer they make called Ridley's Old Bob. Not sure how it matches up to the
original as it is quite definitely a GK product as all of their beers have
a characteristic nose. Even the Ruddles County they make has drifted
towards the "house" style.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

steve auvache

2011-02-12 18:42:33 UTC

Post by wessie
BTW, Ridleys is no more.

Shame.

Post by wessie
I like the
beer they make called Ridley's Old Bob. Not sure how it matches up to the
original

Ridleys was always been characterised by being a proper bitter beer.
wooden barrels on a rack at the back of the bar, proper hops from Kent,
all that sort of thing.

Post by wessie
as it is quite definitely a GK product as all of their beers have
a characteristic nose.

GK has always been thin shite but managed to survive the takeovers by
competing in the south of the county against the likes of Watneys Red
Barrel, against which it shines but then so does northern beer so it is
not much of a compliment. Probably it's survival, like so many
breweries, is due as much to good marketing rather than to any superiority
of product.

--
steve auvache

ogden

2011-02-12 21:11:57 UTC

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

--
ogden

gsxr1000 - the gentleman's sports-tourer
ktm duke - the practical cross-town commuter

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-12 21:27:45 UTC

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

St Austell's Brewery in Cornwall is as about as far west as you can get
and they brew a very fine 'Tribute'.

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

steve auvache

2011-02-12 21:35:40 UTC

On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 21:27:45 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

St Austell's Brewery in Cornwall is as about as far west as you can get
and they brew a very fine 'Tribute'.

As I recall they do a lot of brewing for other people. A bit like Kellogs
giving over their lines to Tesco to make fake corn flakes and in the same
way as Tesco not a patch on the real thing.

--
steve auvache

wessie

2011-02-12 21:39:52 UTC

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

St Austell's Brewery in Cornwall is as about as far west as you can get
and they brew a very fine 'Tribute'.

Auvache's head might explode if he drank some beer from the Orkney Brewery
at 59N 3W (approx). In fact, they make one called Skull Splitter
http://www.sinclairbreweries.co.uk/skull_splitter.html although it is the
Dark Island I like. Drank loads of that in the Grog & Gruel in Fort
William.

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-12 21:56:16 UTC

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

St Austell's Brewery in Cornwall is as about as far west as you can get
and they brew a very fine 'Tribute'.

I can only agree, I sampled a few 'Dark Island' and 'Red Macgregor '
from that brewery, whilst on the Great Glen sailing holiday last year.

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

steve auvache

2011-02-12 23:47:59 UTC

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

St Austell's Brewery in Cornwall is as about as far west as you can get
and they brew a very fine 'Tribute'.

I see you have fallen into the same old trap as all the other winos and
think that proper beer comes with double digit strengths. This is so
wrong. As with all things, quality will out over quantity every time.
Proper beer is beer with taste and not too much alcohol so you can drink
all day and all night.

--
steve auvache

geoff

2011-02-13 00:51:18 UTC

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

St Austell's Brewery in Cornwall is as about as far west as you can get
and they brew a very fine 'Tribute'.

And drunk at a temperature at which you can appreciate that taste

--
geoff

wessie

2011-02-13 01:05:47 UTC

Post by steve auvache
I see you have fallen into the same old trap as all the other winos and
think that proper beer comes with double digit strengths. This is so
wrong. As with all things, quality will out over quantity every time.
Proper beer is beer with taste and not too much alcohol so you can drink
all day and all night.

you're just a lightweight shandy drinking poof and have more in common with
that fragile "2 glasses of Chimay Bleu and dead" cunt from Bradford than
you think.

steve auvache

2011-02-13 12:54:12 UTC

you're just a lightweight shandy drinking poof and have more in common with
that fragile "2 glasses of Chimay Bleu and dead" cunt from Bradford than
you think.

One day perhaps, when you have faced your demons and begun he process of
curing yourself of your addiction you may realise that there is more to
life than lying in the gutter vomiting after a night on the piss having
mysteriously spent 200 quid on what you thought was 5pints and a couple of
chasers.

--
steve auvache

wessie

2011-02-13 13:14:13 UTC

On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:05:47 +0000 (UTC), wessie

Post by steve auvache
I see you have fallen into the same old trap as all the other winos
and think that proper beer comes with double digit strengths. This
is so wrong. As with all things, quality will out over quantity
every time. Proper beer is beer with taste and not too much alcohol
so you can drink all day and all night.

you're just a lightweight shandy drinking poof and have more in common
with that fragile "2 glasses of Chimay Bleu and dead" cunt from
Bradford than you think.

One day perhaps, when you have faced your demons and begun he process
of curing yourself of your addiction you may realise that there is
more to life than lying in the gutter vomiting after a night on the
piss having mysteriously spent 200 quid on what you thought was 5pints
and a couple of chasers.

one day, for perhaps a few seconds, you will have a lucid thought that
matches reality. In the meantime, keep entertaining me with your
fantasies and ersatz nostalgia.

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-13 10:06:28 UTC

Post by wessie
Auvache's head might explode if he drank some beer from the Orkney Brewery
at 59N 3W (approx). In fact, they make one called Skull Splitter
http://www.sinclairbreweries.co.uk/skull_splitter.html although it is the
Dark Island I like. Drank loads of that in the Grog & Gruel in Fort
William.

Ah!
A 'session beer' drinker!

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

steve auvache

2011-02-13 12:48:12 UTC

On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:06:28 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by Mick Whittingham
'session beer'

If ever there was an argument in favour of teetotalism this is it.

--
steve auvache

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-13 14:30:15 UTC

Post by steve auvache
On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:06:28 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by Mick Whittingham
'session beer'

If ever there was an argument in favour of teetotalism this is it.

Woodfords Wherry local session beer.
3.8%
Four pints an hour, first hour, then slow down.

What's wrong with that?

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

The Older Gentleman

2011-02-13 14:41:43 UTC

Post by steve auvache
On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:06:28 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by Mick Whittingham
'session beer'

If ever there was an argument in favour of teetotalism this is it.

Woodfords Wherry local session beer.
3.8%
Four pints an hour, first hour, then slow down.
What's wrong with that?

Session beer is an essential part of any good Morris tour.

You need to be able to keep yourself topped up over maybe five or six
pubs, while not getting so pissed you can't dance. A 3.8-4.0% ale is
perfect for that.

--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250. Only seven bikes now.
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com

2011-02-14 10:11:25 UTC

Post by The Older Gentleman
Session beer is an essential part of any good Morris tour.

And weekends away for football/rugby/cricket/stag dos/any other excuse
etc. etc.

--
Chris

steve auvache

2011-02-13 15:57:13 UTC

On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:30:15 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by steve auvache
On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:06:28 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by Mick Whittingham
'session beer'

If ever there was an argument in favour of teetotalism this is it.

Woodfords Wherry local session beer.
3.8%
Four pints an hour, first hour, then slow down.
What's wrong with that?

3 pints of 5% gives a similar effect for less money.

Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

--
steve auvache

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-13 17:16:50 UTC

Post by steve auvache
On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:30:15 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by steve auvache
On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:06:28 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by Mick Whittingham
'session beer'

If ever there was an argument in favour of teetotalism this is it.

Woodfords Wherry local session beer.
3.8%
Four pints an hour, first hour, then slow down.
What's wrong with that?

3 pints of 5% gives a similar effect for less money.
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

You should try Wherry.

"Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste"

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

Paul Carmichael

2011-02-14 19:19:08 UTC

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.

Tonight I shall mostly be drinking San Miguel and Mahou. Actually, given I
haven't been out of the house all day because of feeling dizzy as fuck,
there's a good chance I won't be drinking anything.

--
Paul.
CBR1100XX SuperBlackbird (Buen mueble de patio), Orbea Dakar
BOTAFOT #4 BOTAFOF #30 MRO #24 OMF #15 UKRMMA #30
http://paulcarmichael.org/ (content pending)

des

2011-02-14 19:22:39 UTC

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.

OK, I give in: what the fuck is a 'session beer'?

--
des
'I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully'
(George W. Bush)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

Paul Carmichael

2011-02-14 19:32:09 UTC

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.

OK, I give in: what the fuck is a 'session beer'?

What one drinks every day and lots of it. Drinkable by the bucket-load. It's
a British thing.

--
Paul.
CBR1100XX SuperBlackbird (Buen mueble de patio), Orbea Dakar
BOTAFOT #4 BOTAFOF #30 MRO #24 OMF #15 UKRMMA #30
http://paulcarmichael.org/ (content pending)

ginge

2011-02-14 19:33:00 UTC

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.

OK, I give in: what the fuck is a 'session beer'?

A beer generally 4% or below, and typically a bitter, ideally suited
for consumption during an all day drinking session or pub crawl.

des

2011-02-14 19:34:31 UTC

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.

OK, I give in: what the fuck is a 'session beer'?

A beer generally 4% or below, and typically a bitter, ideally suited
for consumption during an all day drinking session or pub crawl.

Ah. I thought the 'session' denoted some sort of musicians' favourite
tipple.

--
des
'I want to tell you a terrific story about oral contraception. I asked
this girl to sleep with me and she said "No"'
(Woody Allen)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

wessie

2011-02-14 19:55:58 UTC

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.

OK, I give in: what the fuck is a 'session beer'?

A beer generally 4% or below, and typically a bitter, ideally suited
for consumption during an all day drinking session or pub crawl.

Not typically a bitter. Highgate Mild is one of the best session beers
known to man. Plenty of flavour as it is a dark brew and only about 3%ABV.
Sadly, proper Brains Dark real ale seems to be on the way out in S.Wales,
replaced with the horrid nitrokeg variant. Go to the West Country and pale
ale is still relatively common, although few have much flavour.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

ginge

2011-02-14 20:48:46 UTC

On Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:55:58 +0000 (UTC), wessie

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.

OK, I give in: what the fuck is a 'session beer'?

A beer generally 4% or below, and typically a bitter, ideally suited
for consumption during an all day drinking session or pub crawl.

Round here most of the local dark beers tend to range from 4.5 - 6.5%,
whereas at the same time there's a raft of 3-4% hoppy ales on offer
from all the local breweries.

wessie

2011-02-14 21:49:19 UTC

Post by ginge
Round here most of the local dark beers tend to range from 4.5 - 6.5%,
whereas at the same time there's a raft of 3-4% hoppy ales on offer
from all the local breweries.

it's a national trend. Dark beers cost more as the malts are much dearer so
they brew them out to higher ABVs as people will pay more for the higher
alcohol. Even the iconic Highgate Dark Mild has gone it seems with the
brewery sold for property development.

Dark milds used to be cheaper than the bitters, mainly because all of the
dregs were poured back into the dark mild. Sealed kegs largely stopped that
practice and modern real ale drinkers have more refined palates compared to
mild drinkers of yore so it's not so easy to get away with tampering with
the beer. Much easier to sell Lidl vodka as Smirnoff to the DVR crowd as a
bit of a back pocket supplement for the dodgy bar keeper.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

ogden

2011-02-15 10:51:47 UTC

Post by des
OK, I give in: what the fuck is a 'session beer'?

A beer generally 4% or below, and typically a bitter, ideally suited
for consumption during an all day drinking session or pub crawl.

Not typically a bitter. Highgate Mild is one of the best session beers
known to man.

With one small, yet fatal, flaw: it's a Mild, and therefore unfit for
human consumption.

--
ogden

gsxr1000 - the gentleman's sports-tourer
ktm duke - the practical cross-town commuter

SIRPip

2011-02-15 13:13:10 UTC

Post by wessie
Not typically a bitter. Highgate Mild is one of the best session
beers known to man.

With one small, yet fatal, flaw: it's a Mild, and therefore unfit for
human consumption.

Case in point, as discussed with young Mr Fisher just the other day:
Sarah Hughes Ruby Mild:

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/165/439

Not your typical mild, not by a long shot - as Pete described it, it
has the colour of old sump oil when held to the light (but not in a bad
way) that not-quite-black, shading through brown into deep, deep red.
May be a touch sweet for hoppy palates, but at a healthy 6% it has
redeeming features. I like it lots, but I like Porters too - and that
Mild at the Black Horse that I got into with WUN was luuurvely -
halfway through the third pint we realised that was over 5% and we had
to ride home shortly. Don't recall the name, but there was a black
galleon on the pump clip.

--
SIRPip: B12

Tosspot

2011-02-14 20:17:31 UTC

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.
Tonight I shall mostly be drinking San Miguel and Mahou.

San Miguel is not a beer. I don't know what the fuck it is, but it
isn't a beer. Even if your 400 miles from the nearest watering hole,
seeing giant purple spiders, shaking like a virgin in a cat house.

Post by Paul Carmichael
Actually, given I haven't been out of the house all day because of
feeling dizzy as fuck, there's a good chance I won't be drinking
anything.

Given the choice a good thing!

Paul Carmichael

2011-02-14 20:27:45 UTC

Post by Tosspot

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.
Tonight I shall mostly be drinking San Miguel and Mahou.

San Miguel is not a beer.

It's a beer. Not an ale. A lager beer.

Post by Tosspot
I don't know what the fuck it is, but it
isn't a beer. Even if your 400 miles

They're not mine.

Post by Tosspot
from the nearest watering hole,
seeing giant purple spiders, shaking like a virgin in a cat house.

I was a bit like that this morning. Perhaps it's a result of drinking San
Miguel?

--
Paul.
CBR1100XX SuperBlackbird (Buen mueble de patio), Orbea Dakar
BOTAFOT #4 BOTAFOF #30 MRO #24 OMF #15 UKRMMA #30
http://paulcarmichael.org/ (content pending)

Tosspot

2011-02-15 17:48:39 UTC

Post by Tosspot

Post by steve auvache
Not to mention that session beers or not usually noted for their taste.

Courage Directors and Ruddles County used to be my session beers.
Tonight I shall mostly be drinking San Miguel and Mahou.

San Miguel is not a beer.

It's a beer. Not an ale. A lager beer.

Hailing from the Krauthaus, lager is my staple diet, I *still* don't
count San Miguel. Stick to the red, that's my advice!

Post by Tosspot
I don't know what the fuck it is, but it
isn't a beer. Even if your 400 miles

They're not mine.

Post by Tosspot
from the nearest watering hole,
seeing giant purple spiders, shaking like a virgin in a cat house.

I was a bit like that this morning. Perhaps it's a result of drinking San
Miguel?

I got through 3 litres last night and barely a pause this morning. Now
otoh, I'm feeling the effects of the day :(

2011-02-14 10:09:38 UTC

Post by Mick Whittingham
St Austell's Brewery in Cornwall is as about as far west as you can
get and they brew a very fine 'Tribute'.

I like Tribute a lot.

It was first brewed as a special for the eclipse in 1999 and was called
Daylight Robbery initially but was so popular they started brewing it
regularly to compete with the likes of Director's. They changed the
name because DR was considered to quirky and specific.

Actually, I like Sharps beers a lot too. Must be the Cornish water.

--
Chris

Salad Dodger

2011-02-12 22:02:14 UTC

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

Harveys is East of Greenwich. A full minute.

--
GL1800A6; GL1500SEV; CB1300SA8; CBX1000Z
Previously ...
CBR1100XX-X; CBR1000FL; GPz750R; Z650C2;
Z750E1; KH500A8; KH250B3; TS250c; TS185c.

ogden

2011-02-12 22:15:41 UTC

Post by Salad Dodger

Post by steve auvache
I suppose you are right. Anything west of the Greenwich meridian is
generally best considered as crap.

Given that Lewes is west of the meridian, you're clearly talking
bollocks.

Harveys is East of Greenwich. A full minute.

Crikey, so it is.

--
ogden

gsxr1000 - the gentleman's sports-tourer
ktm duke - the practical cross-town commuter

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-12 15:28:12 UTC

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Nige <***@btinternet.com>
writes

Post by Nige
seriously, you'll spend a few quid & end up chucking it out.
Every pint of homebrew i have ever drank gave me instant shits too.

But it still tastes like shit

The only way to brew beer is in the sort of quantity[1] that means you
have to chill[2] the fermentation to the desired temperature for maximum
ferment.

This also means it will self stir with the convection currents and that
speeds the fermentation.

Then to clear the beer at the end chill it down so the ferment stops.
The yeast drops out for the next brew and you filter off clear beer.

One of my yearly challenges was to take a course for micro brewers at
Sunderland Uni.

[1] Tends to be 50 to 100 gallons but you can reduce this to say 15 to
20 if you lag the fermentation vessel.

[2] If you can get hold of an old beer chiller and a small pump plus a
temperature controller from say Maplin you are home and dry (or pissed).

Wind tubing around the ferment vessel and pass the chilled water through
it.

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

wessie

2011-02-12 15:47:21 UTC

Post by Mick Whittingham
The only way to brew beer is in the sort of quantity[1] that means you
have to chill[2] the fermentation to the desired temperature for maximum
ferment.

Only way? Bollocks. Brewing has been done for centuries without such
considerations. Lagering needs cold fermentation but that is not a style
the home brewer is likely to use. Admittedly, to get a consistent product
using a predetermined method will help. Again, home brewers are not that
bothered about consistency, in fact I liked the slight variations with
batches.

Post by Mick Whittingham
This also means it will self stir with the convection currents and that
speeds the fermentation.
Then to clear the beer at the end chill it down so the ferment stops.
The yeast drops out for the next brew and you filter off clear beer.

I used this technique - the beer began by sitting the wort next to a
storage heater to get it warm enough to start the frementation. Once it was
off you needed to move the vat (large plastic swing bin holding 5 gallons)
otherwise the fermentation would be over too quickly. Once the primary
fermentation was over I transferred the beer to a pressurised barrel for
the secondary. This would vent off excess CO2 but keep the beer pressurised
as if in a bottle. That barrel would be transferred to the unheated utility
room and left for 6 weeks or more to complete the secondary and mature.
There was usually enough pressure in the barrel to deliver the beer until
consumed. As no air entered the barrel the beer would keep for a while,
although 5 gallons never lasted long. At no time did I measure the
temperature of the wort or beer, just relying on ambient temperature
changes to do the work.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-12 18:38:42 UTC

Post by Mick Whittingham
The only way to brew beer is in the sort of quantity[1] that means you
have to chill[2] the fermentation to the desired temperature for maximum
ferment.

Only way? Bollocks.

Yours or clean ones?

Post by wessie
Brewing has been done for centuries without such
considerations.

And it tastes like shit unless the brew master could control the
temperature of the fermenting wort but air flow through the brewery.

Post by wessie
Lagering needs cold fermentation

???

Post by wessie
but that is not a style
the home brewer is likely to use.

You don't cold ferment any real ale/lager, top or bottom ferment yes ,
it gives a different taste. What you have to do is stop the yeast
producing too much heat when fermenting that will raise the temperature
to a level that will kill of the yeast. When you are in control of the
temperature getting too hot by chilling you have a fast effective
ferment. But this only happens in large quantities.

Most beers of less than 4 % are fermented out in only a few days.

Post by wessie
Admittedly, to get a consistent product
using a predetermined method will help.

Commercially even the temperature that the water hits the grist on it's
drop into the mash tun is held to one degree.

Post by wessie
Again, home brewers are not that
bothered about consistency, in fact I liked the slight variations with
batches.

What ever floats your boat.

If you are happy with the results then absolutely no problem but if you
want consistency and a beer/ale that does not taste like 'home brew' you
have to follow my suggestions. ie brew in quantities that mean the
temperature must be controlled.

For my sins I automated the temperature control for the whole brewing
process for the Minnis Micro Brewery run by John Whithey the ex master
brewer for Shepherd and Neame.

I did the design and installation in exchange for free beer for a year.
Circa 1995

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

wessie

2011-02-12 19:06:43 UTC

Post by Mick Whittingham
If you are happy with the results then absolutely no problem but if
you want consistency and a beer/ale that does not taste like 'home
brew' you have to follow my suggestions. ie brew in quantities that
mean the temperature must be controlled.

you patronising cunt. Your suggestions might be appropriate for industrial
brewing[1] but craft brewers develop their own techniques which is what
makes British ale the wonderful thing it is.

If you want to make something akin to Watneys Reg Barrel bright beer every
time you make a batch then carry on. Just leave the thousands of micro/home
brewers up & down the country to get on with their craft.

[1] although I'd argue this point as well, as there have been a number of
different and highly succesful methods for making ale.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-12 20:05:59 UTC

you patronising cunt.

Oh wind your neck back in, I'm not being patronising.
I've brewed beer like I described at my Kent place in 20 gallon plastic
barrels no problem and it gets away from the home brew taste - just. But
I would mostly help John Whithey when I could in return for beer.

My J was brewing apple wine in 30+ gallon lots[1] with black berry in 30
gallons along with the elderberry in large quantities per year. Volume
does have an effect on the taste.

Post by wessie
Your suggestions might be appropriate for industrial
brewing[1] but craft brewers develop their own techniques which is what
makes British ale the wonderful thing it is.
If you want to make something akin to Watneys Reg Barrel bright beer every
time you make a batch then carry on.

I find that quite offensive :) It takes skill to produce a good beer
it's not an accident.

Post by wessie
Just leave the thousands of micro/home
brewers up & down the country to get on with their craft.

You have no idea what I have been doing in the micro brewery line. Or
the number of micro breweries I was in touch with in the 90s. Some still
going in Kent some not. (Must phone around and see who's still brewing.
John Whithey in now in the US setting up brew-pubs with a lot of
success.)

Post by wessie
[1] although I'd argue this point as well, as there have been a number of
different and highly succesful methods for making ale.

But if you want consistently good beer you have to follow certain rules
what ever the method. Just about everything you do with the process and
the ingredients effects the taste. What I described suits a top
fermented real ale, which is what most (not all) home brewed beers
approximate to.

[1] second picking on a local orchard as they only pick the once.
Start off with a lot of helpers drinking last years produce while
working with a ton of apples. ( well it filled a 4 x 8 foot trailer
right up to the top, I suppose the equivalent of two Ozy boxes)

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

steve auvache

2011-02-12 17:58:21 UTC

On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:28:12 +0000, Mick Whittingham

Post by Mick Whittingham
The only way to brew beer is in the sort of quantity[1] that means you
have to chill[2] the fermentation to the desired temperature for maximum
ferment.

Chill beer during the ferment??

That is not beer, that is foreign shite.

--
steve auvache

steve auvache

2011-02-12 16:56:03 UTC

Dont they sell beer in shops?

do keep up - they do but it's shit. Considering des spent years in France
and rates Kronenberg as "good" then the Isreali stuff must be aweful.

Post by Nige
seriously, you'll spend a few quid & end up chucking it out.
Every pint of homebrew i have ever drank gave me instant shits too.

But it still tastes like shit

I think your problem begins with a deep non understanding of what proper
beer tastes like in the first place. Perhaps a trip a few hundred miles
to the south to educate your common northern palate may be of benefit.

--
steve auvache

des

2011-02-12 15:51:20 UTC

Considering des spent years in France and rates Kronenberg as "good"

I do?

--
des
'I love California - I practically grew up in Phoenix'
(Dan Quayle (1947 - ))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

wessie

2011-02-12 16:16:48 UTC

Considering des spent years in France and rates Kronenberg as "good"

I do?

"A favourite tipple back in the home country was 9ø 1664"

1664 is a Kronenbourg[1] beer, although the standard pression is 5%ABV (not
sure whterh that is the same as your 9 degrees using the old proof
measuring system). http://www.k1664.co.uk/

I don't watch TV adverts due to the wonders of torrents. K1664 have some
interesting ones http://www.k1664.co.uk/slow-campaign.html

[1] now spelt correctly

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

The Older Gentleman

2011-02-12 17:40:39 UTC

Post by wessie
1664 is a Kronenbourg[1] beer, although the standard pression is 5%ABV

Used to be 6.5% in France, back in the day.

--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250. Only seven bikes now.
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com

Ace

2011-02-12 18:54:41 UTC

Post by The Older Gentleman

Post by wessie
1664 is a Kronenbourg[1] beer, although the standard pression is 5%ABV

Used to be 6.5% in France, back in the day.

Still around that. It's only the poncy UK version that's been watered
down.

des

2011-02-12 18:24:34 UTC

Considering des spent years in France and rates Kronenberg as "good"

I do?

"A favourite tipple back in the home country was 9ø 1664"

Ah, right. <fx: googles>. Well, I never. I'd always assumed that 'seize'
was independent and was then subsequently bought by Kron. You live and
learn.

des
'As the most powerful state, the US makes its own laws, using
force and conducting economic warfare at will'
(Noam Chomsky (1928 - ))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

wessie

2011-02-12 18:32:22 UTC

Considering des spent years in France and rates Kronenberg as "good"

I do?

"A favourite tipple back in the home country was 9ø 1664"

Ah, right. <fx: googles>. Well, I never. I'd always assumed that 'seize'
was independent and was then subsequently bought by Kron. You live and
learn.

Haha. In the UK it was always sold as Kronenbourg 1664 and the link to a
date was used as a marketing device.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

des

2011-02-12 18:49:57 UTC

Considering des spent years in France and rates Kronenberg as "good"

I do?

"A favourite tipple back in the home country was 9ø 1664"

Ah, right. <fx: googles>. Well, I never. I'd always assumed that

'seize'

Post by des
was independent and was then subsequently bought by Kron. You live and
learn.

Haha. In the UK it was always sold as Kronenbourg 1664 and the link to a
date was used as a marketing device.

My deception is all the greater as back home, 'Kro' was regarded as the
sort of pisswater that students and workies would drink 'cos it was cheap.

--
des
'io non mori' e non rimasi vivo'
(Dante (1265 - 1321))
<http://thereligionofpeace.com/>

wessie

2011-02-12 19:09:48 UTC

Post by wessie
Haha. In the UK it was always sold as Kronenbourg 1664 and the link
to a date was used as a marketing device.

My deception is all the greater as back home, 'Kro' was regarded as
the sort of pisswater that students and workies would drink 'cos it
was cheap.

We never had the Kro with the red cross on the bottle until booze cruises
became popular and you saw cases of the 3% piss in people's kitchens at
parties. As you say, it is horrible. Most supermarkets sell it under
private label, sold as generic "biere d'Alsace" and it is just as foul.

--
wessie at tesco dot net

BMW R1150GS

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-12 20:07:30 UTC

Post by wessie
Haha. In the UK it was always sold as Kronenbourg 1664 and the link
to a date was used as a marketing device.

My deception is all the greater as back home, 'Kro' was regarded as
the sort of pisswater that students and workies would drink 'cos it
was cheap.

I definite lack beer taste.

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

Mark Olson

2011-02-12 20:21:21 UTC

Post by Mick Whittingham
I definite lack beer taste.

Not that I really want to know- but what exactly do you taste of?

Mick Whittingham

2011-02-12 20:51:09 UTC

Post by Mark Olson

Post by Mick Whittingham
I definite lack beer taste.

Not that I really want to know- but what exactly do you taste of?

I really don't know how I typed that.
I'm wandering past the PC this is on and answering bits of threads from
different groups each time I go passed.
I'm listening to music through a pair of radio head phones.
Finishing the glass of rioja that I had with the paella I cooked for
dinner.
In a world of my own.

Taste of?
Garlic, onions chicken and a goodly mixture of sea food if you tried a
lick.

You didn't want to know that did you?

--
Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

SIRPip

2011-02-13 19:47:05 UTC

Post by Mark Olson

Post by Mick Whittingham
I definite lack beer taste.

Not that I really want to know- but what exactly do you taste of?

Taste of?
Garlic, onions chicken and a goodly mixture of sea food if you tried
a lick.

You forgot the salt, Mick. You're definitely a salty old dog.

--
SIRPip: B12

des

2011-02-14 09:46:45 UTC

Post by wessie
Haha. In the UK it was always sold as Kronenbourg 1664 and the link
to a date was used as a marketing device.

My deception is all the greater as back home, 'Kro' was regarded as
the sort of pisswater that students and workies would drink 'cos it
was cheap.

I think it's the same stuff that you'll get in 'les troquets PMU' if you
ask for 'un demi'. Vile.

--
des
'In reality, the state is nothing but a machine for the oppression of
one class by another, and indeed in the democratic republic no less
than in the monarchy'
(Friedrich Engels (1820 - 1895))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

des

2011-02-12 17:28:14 UTC

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing? It's something I've wanted to
do for years..

I know one thing, it always tastes like shit & takes up half your house.
Dont bother.

Dont they sell beer in shops?
seriously, you'll spend a few quid & end up chucking it out.
Every pint of homebrew i have ever drank gave me instant shits too.

I think I've realised why you keep bikes for so little time...

--
des
'Sometimes I get the feeling the whole world is against me, but deep
down, I know that's not true. Some smaller countries are neutral'
(Robert Orben (1927 - ))
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>

Donnie

2011-02-12 15:50:27 UTC

Post by des
Anyone know anything about home brewing? It's something I've
wanted to do for years..

I know one thing, it always tastes like shit & takes up half your house.
Dont bother.

Got 40 pints [1] here in my pressure barrel of coopers stout and it's
lovely, tastes very like murphy's, though Ill be searching one out
that's a little more guinness tasting.

Works out at 32p a pint [2] and is about 6% abv.

Have also done 18 [3] bottles of apple wine, 18 [4] of clove and
ginger, 6 [5] of elderberry, 6 [6]of blackberry too and all have been
more than acceptable.

1. Ok, 30 now as Ive had about 10 pints in the last 8 or so days,
proper strong too and only with 2 weeks conditioning.
2. This does not include the outlay for the barrel etc but I got most
of my stuff from ebay / freecycle / junk shop
3. Only 6 left, these are all from a kit wine, very nice though.
4. Only 7 left and this is all made from a recipe, very nice it is too.
5. only 3 left and I wasn't sure about it, but apparantly this is one
of the ones you simply should not drink until its been in the bottle at
least 6 months.
6. None left, lovely and sweet too and all from blackberries we picked
on the side of the roads ourselves.

--
Donnie
"Fuck the world, it's time to fight back"

Lambretta Series 2 186cc "The Shitter"
Lambretta LD 175cc "The Chopper"
Honda CB500R "Look out, Donnie's about!"

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