Discussion:
OT: Royal Spit Roast
(too old to reply)
Wicked Uncle Nigel
2005-12-30 00:46:54 UTC
Permalink
So:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4568012.stm

Chirac and Bush spit-roasting Betty Windsor. And I can't find decent
pics of the posters anywhere on the Interweb thingy. Anyone had more
success?
--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - There are few things in life more sinister than a
public toilet with the lid closed.

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wessie
2005-12-30 01:51:11 UTC
Permalink
Wicked Uncle Nigel emerged from their own little world to say
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4568012.stm
Chirac and Bush spit-roasting Betty Windsor. And I can't find decent
pics of the posters anywhere on the Interweb thingy. Anyone had more
success?
From BBC link: http://www.25peaces.at/ "presse" "downloads"

http://www.25peaces.at/site/fileadmin/content/presse/downloads/texte/EUROPART_SCREEN.pdf
6.12MB

p22 for GWB ladyboy & ménage à trois

p8 may interest you too

The site is very busy. Only came through at 4kB/s
--
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BMW R1150GS
Judge
2005-12-30 17:06:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4568012.stm
Chirac and Bush spit-roasting Betty Windsor. And I can't find decent
pics of the posters anywhere on the Interweb thingy. Anyone had more
success?
What a fuss over a really innocuous couple of pictures.
--
The Judge.
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d***@burnt.org.uk
2005-12-30 18:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4568012.stm
Chirac and Bush spit-roasting Betty Windsor. And I can't find decent
pics of the posters anywhere on the Interweb thingy. Anyone had more
success?
What a fuss over a really innocuous couple of pictures.
I disagree, it takes three heads of state and places caricature in
positions that, say, 25% of the population would find offensive.

Whilst it doesn't offend me because of what it does to the characters,
it offends me that some fuck-head got paid to waste his/her time on such
rubbish. I'd also not have been too chuffed to have had to explain it
to my children when they were younger.

It's unnecessarily offensive and the Austrians were out of their minds
to sponsor it in the first place.
Eiron
2005-12-30 19:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4568012.stm
Chirac and Bush spit-roasting Betty Windsor. And I can't find decent
pics of the posters anywhere on the Interweb thingy. Anyone had more
success?
What a fuss over a really innocuous couple of pictures.
I disagree, it takes three heads of state and places caricature in
positions that, say, 25% of the population would find offensive.
Whilst it doesn't offend me because of what it does to the characters,
it offends me that some fuck-head got paid to waste his/her time on such
rubbish. I'd also not have been too chuffed to have had to explain it
to my children when they were younger.
It's unnecessarily offensive and the Austrians were out of their minds
to sponsor it in the first place.
It is also politically and historically inaccurate.
An image showing the raison d'etre of the E.U. should show Britain being
shafted by France and Germany, with Spain in the background amusing itself.
--
Eiron

I have no spirit to play with you; your dearth of judgment renders you
tedious - Ben Jonson.
d***@burnt.org.uk
2005-12-30 23:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eiron
It is also politically and historically inaccurate.
An image showing the raison d'etre of the E.U. should show Britain being
shafted by France and Germany, with Spain in the background amusing itself.
My view would be that it should show Britain shafting *itself* to be
more accurate.
Judge
2005-12-31 02:06:10 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
rubbish. I'd also not have been too chuffed to have had to explain it
to my children when they were younger.
I don't see that as an issue.
--
The Judge.
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d***@burnt.org.uk
2005-12-31 14:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
<snip>
rubbish. I'd also not have been too chuffed to have had to explain it
to my children when they were younger.
I don't see that as an issue.
You might not. Many others would.

Just because something doesn't offend you doesn't mean it won't offend
others.
Judge
2005-12-31 16:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
<snip>
rubbish. I'd also not have been too chuffed to have had to explain it
to my children when they were younger.
I don't see that as an issue.
You might not. Many others would.
Just because something doesn't offend you doesn't mean it won't offend
others.
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are in
advance.
--
The Judge.
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d***@burnt.org.uk
2005-12-31 19:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are in
advance.
Do you have any children?

And, in this particular case the art was designed to be shocking so it
wasn't hard to work out it was likely to cause offense.
Judge
2006-01-01 01:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are in
advance.
Do you have any children?
And, in this particular case the art was designed to be shocking so it
wasn't hard to work out it was likely to cause offense.
Yep. Two girls approaching teenage. And both have very mature and balanced
views on issues of nudity and sex.

I've always found discussing and explaining challenging images is the best
way to help kids understand them.

It's pictures of war and famine they find harder to deal with. And that's
fine by me.
--
The Judge.
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d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-01 10:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are in
advance.
Do you have any children?
And, in this particular case the art was designed to be shocking so it
wasn't hard to work out it was likely to cause offense.
Yep. Two girls approaching teenage. And both have very mature and balanced
views on issues of nudity and sex.
An unexpected answer, I must admit. However your definition of mature
and balanced would not necessarily be that of others.
Post by Judge
I've always found discussing and explaining challenging images is the best
way to help kids understand them.
I wouldn't deny this. I live on a farm, explaining the mechanics of sex
isn't an issue. But it's the depiction of women as objects for
gratification that I'd find hard to explain; if I was asked.
Barry
2006-01-01 12:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are in
advance.
Do you have any children?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my guess is that sweller is in his teens or early 20s and is a "lad".
I cast my votes as follows.

Lozzo.......9
Judge .....8
deadmail...8.5
Sweller ....2


B
Lozzo
2006-01-01 12:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Barry said...
Post by Barry
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are in
advance.
Do you have any children?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my guess is that sweller is in his teens or early 20s and is a "lad".
I cast my votes as follows.
You couldn't be further from the truth. Sweller's just a late 30s
responsible parent who puts his child's moral welfare before his own
sexual preferences, much the same as myself.
--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-01 12:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
my guess is that sweller is in his teens or early 20s and is a "lad".
Wrong on both counts.
sweller
2006-01-01 12:48:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
my guess is that sweller is in his teens or early 20s and is a "lad".
I cast my votes as follows.
What makes you say that? I'm 37, married, with a 14 year old daughter
who's currently training as a ballet dancer.

Normally people expect me to be older.
Post by Barry
Lozzo.......9
Judge .....8
deadmail...8.5
Sweller ....2
I don't understand this. If it's an indication of your support it's a
tad confused as the views receiving high marks are contradictory.
--
Simon
Barry
2006-01-01 15:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by sweller
Post by Barry
my guess is that sweller is in his teens or early 20s and is a "lad".
I cast my votes as follows.
What makes you say that? I'm 37, married, with a 14 year old daughter
who's currently training as a ballet dancer.
Normally people expect me to be older.
Post by Barry
Lozzo.......9
Judge .....8
deadmail...8.5
Sweller ....2
I don't understand this. If it's an indication of your support it's a
tad confused as the views receiving high marks are contradictory.
--
Simon
-------------------------------------------------------

The points were for style not content.............and as for my previous
comments......I think its asking a bit much for me to get everything right !

I wanted my daughter to to take ballet lessons but he decided to do Tai Ch
instead.

B
The Older Gentleman
2006-01-01 15:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
The points were for style not content.............and as for my previous
comments......I think its asking a bit much for me to get everything right !
Just *something* would be nice.....
--
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Grimly Curmudgeon
2006-01-01 15:45:43 UTC
Permalink
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
Post by Barry
I wanted my daughter to to take ballet lessons but he decided to do Tai Ch
instead.
Ah well, that's a problem.
--
Dave
GS850x2 SE6a
I demand nothing of you except that you amuse me.
muddy
2006-01-01 15:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
I wanted my daughter to to take ballet lessons but he decided to do Tai Ch
instead.
I think you need to sort something here.
--
Mike
DL1000 (WarthogII) SV650 (for sale) UKRMMA#22
Skype: mikebothe
The Older Gentleman
2006-01-01 14:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
my guess is that sweller is in his teens or early 20s and is a "lad".
*Snort*
--
Trophy 1200 750SS XS650 CB400F CB125S DT50MX
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
Barry
2006-01-01 15:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Older Gentleman
Post by Barry
my guess is that sweller is in his teens or early 20s and is a "lad".
*Snort*
------------------------------------------------------------A snort
from someone who would burn an NSU quickly..shame on you !!!

B
The Older Gentleman
2006-01-01 15:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
Post by The Older Gentleman
Post by Barry
my guess is that sweller is in his teens or early 20s and is a "lad".
*Snort*
------------------------------------------------------------A snort
from someone who would burn an NSU quickly..shame on you !!!
Nope, I read this three times, and it still came out as unintelligible
crap.
--
Trophy 1200 750SS XS650 CB400F CB125S DT50MX
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
sweller
2005-12-31 20:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are
in advance.
You're a bit of a wanker, aren't you?
--
Simon
Judge
2006-01-01 01:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are
in advance.
You're a bit of a wanker, aren't you?
You need to get out more. You seem to have a limited view of life. Try
reading a book or visiting a nearby village.
--
The Judge.
FJR1300 - Transalp
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sweller
2006-01-01 12:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
You need to get out more. You seem to have a limited view of life. Try
reading a book or visiting a nearby village.
What makes you say that? It doesn't make any sense (or is applicable to
me). I can only surmise it's a clever joke I've missed.
--
Simon
Champ
2006-01-02 15:13:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 20:37:52 +0000, "sweller"
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are
in advance.
You're a bit of a wanker, aren't you?
You usually work these things out a bit quicker than this, Simon.
--
Champ
sweller
2006-01-02 15:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It
isn't possible for the offender to know how delicate their
sensibilities are in advance.
You're a bit of a wanker, aren't you?
You usually work these things out a bit quicker than this, Simon.
I also normally keep my own counsel.
--
Simon
Lozzo
2006-01-02 15:33:48 UTC
Permalink
sweller said...
Post by sweller
Post by Champ
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It
isn't possible for the offender to know how delicate their
sensibilities are in advance.
You're a bit of a wanker, aren't you?
You usually work these things out a bit quicker than this, Simon.
I also normally keep my own counsel.
Can you ask them to grit the roads around here tonight please, it looks
like it will freeze.
--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
Paul Corfield
2006-01-02 16:05:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 20:37:52 +0000, "sweller"
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
I consider offence as a problem for the offendee to sort out. It isn't
possible for the offender to know how delicate their sensibilities are
in advance.
You're a bit of a wanker, aren't you?
That's one possible description.
--
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Ferger
2005-12-31 15:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Whilst it doesn't offend me because of what it does to the characters,
it offends me that some fuck-head got paid to waste his/her time on such
rubbish. I'd also not have been too chuffed to have had to explain it
to my children when they were younger.
Entirely agree. It's a vaguely amusing caricature, but it has no place on
a public billboard.

<consciousTroll>

I'm also getting a bit sick of lad mags being thrust in kiddy's faces
everywhere. Went down the petrol station with my three year old earlier
and not particularly amused at the giant cardboard display of Nuts, Loaded
etc standing on the floor, so my daughter is looking eye-to-eye with some
barely-clothed bimbo, and forming ideas about the world which I don't think
reflect any sort of reality except that of the average sweaty-palmed
adolescent teenager. Put them on the top-shelf where they belong.

</consciousTroll>
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
Judge
2005-12-31 16:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferger
<consciousTroll>
I'm also getting a bit sick of lad mags being thrust in kiddy's faces
everywhere. Went down the petrol station with my three year old earlier
and not particularly amused at the giant cardboard display of Nuts, Loaded
etc standing on the floor, so my daughter is looking eye-to-eye with some
barely-clothed bimbo, and forming ideas about the world which I don't
think reflect any sort of reality except that of the average sweaty-palmed
adolescent teenager. Put them on the top-shelf where they belong.
</consciousTroll>
Fuck me! Mary Whitehouse lives.

Go and live in Holland where sex shops openly show explicit shagging
pictures in the window.

You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in the
media.
--
The Judge.
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Ben
2005-12-31 17:09:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:24:15 +0000, Judge
Post by Judge
Post by Ferger
<consciousTroll>
I'm also getting a bit sick of lad mags being thrust in kiddy's faces
everywhere. Went down the petrol station with my three year old earlier
and not particularly amused at the giant cardboard display of Nuts, Loaded
etc standing on the floor, so my daughter is looking eye-to-eye with some
barely-clothed bimbo, and forming ideas about the world which I don't
think reflect any sort of reality except that of the average sweaty-palmed
adolescent teenager. Put them on the top-shelf where they belong.
</consciousTroll>
Fuck me! Mary Whitehouse lives.
Go and live in Holland where sex shops openly show explicit shagging
pictures in the window.
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in the
media.
There's a difference between a display of nudity and a display of sex.

Ask an artist if you're unsure.
--
http://www.addict-racing.com
Ferger
2005-12-31 18:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Fuck me! Mary Whitehouse lives.
Hardly. I'm pretty much totally anti-censorship
Post by Judge
Go and live in Holland where sex shops openly show explicit shagging
pictures in the window.
But you have to go to the sex-shop in order to see what's in the
window....
Post by Judge
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in
the media.
You seem to be confused between censorship and control of the distribution
mechanism. I don't have a problem with the advert. I don't have a problem
with lad mags (apart from what it says about this nation's cultural
attitudes). I don't have a problem with pornography in general (with some
caveats around the exploitation of women, but I happen to think the
proportion of pornographic material that falls into this category is
diminishing). I do have a problem with material that may cause offense to
significant numbers being distributed in a way that makes it impossible to
avoid whilst leading a normal existence. And I particularly have a problem
with my children being exposed to material that I wouldn't, yet, want them
to see. I doubt I'm alone in this and I doubt the things I'd rather my
children weren't exposed to are particularly unusual.
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
steve auvache
2005-12-31 19:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferger
Post by Judge
Fuck me! Mary Whitehouse lives.
Hardly. I'm pretty much totally anti-censorship
Post by Judge
Go and live in Holland where sex shops openly show explicit shagging
pictures in the window.
But you have to go to the sex-shop in order to see what's in the
window....
Post by Judge
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in
the media.
You seem to be confused between censorship and control of the distribution
mechanism. I don't have a problem with the advert. I don't have a problem
with lad mags (apart from what it says about this nation's cultural
attitudes). I don't have a problem with pornography in general (with some
caveats around the exploitation of women, but I happen to think the
proportion of pornographic material that falls into this category is
diminishing). I do have a problem with material that may cause offense to
significant numbers being distributed in a way that makes it impossible to
avoid whilst leading a normal existence. And I particularly have a problem
with my children being exposed to material that I wouldn't, yet, want them
to see. I doubt I'm alone in this and I doubt the things I'd rather my
children weren't exposed to are particularly unusual.
Fucking right on, it's art innit and art is for grown ups, we have to
keep kids away from art until it has been whitewashed and had it's
naughty bits pasted over by history.

I should point out that I have not seen the piece in question either in
the flesh or the telebox, the merest hint of the subject matter on the
six o'clock news was enough to dull my interest to the reflecting level
of a black hole.
--
steve auvache
still in search of The Perfect Date.
Judge
2006-01-01 02:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferger
Post by Judge
Fuck me! Mary Whitehouse lives.
Hardly. I'm pretty much totally anti-censorship
Post by Judge
Go and live in Holland where sex shops openly show explicit shagging
pictures in the window.
But you have to go to the sex-shop in order to see what's in the
window....
There's a paved shopping area in Utrecht - not widely considered a porn
capital - where a porn shop is joined to an ice cream shop on one side and
a cosmetics shop on the other. You don't have to go looking for it but the
window is a pretty full display of magazines, clothing and sex aids.

As I sat outside the ice cream parlour with my misses we were surprised at
how none of the passing kids paid it the slightest attention.

Because they've been brought up with it, it isn't an issue for them.
Post by Ferger
Post by Judge
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in
the media.
You seem to be confused between censorship and control of the distribution
mechanism.
Controlled distribution is just another form of censorship. It is only a
matter of scale or effort.
Post by Ferger
I don't have a problem with the advert. I don't have a
problem with lad mags (apart from what it says about this nation's
cultural
attitudes). I don't have a problem with pornography in general (with some
caveats around the exploitation of women, but I happen to think the
proportion of pornographic material that falls into this category is
diminishing). I do have a problem with material that may cause offense to
significant numbers being distributed in a way that makes it impossible to
avoid whilst leading a normal existence. And I particularly have a problem
with my children being exposed to material that I wouldn't, yet, want them
to see. I doubt I'm alone in this and I doubt the things I'd rather my
children weren't exposed to are particularly unusual.
Adults that stop their kids seeing sexual images are just perpetuating the
problem. It becomes a matter of mystery and intrigue for them just as it is
for most adults in the UK.

Don't assume you're doing them any favours by trying to keep it from them.

If you think you're a well balanced individual, consider how you got that
way. Do you really think that having the mysteries of sexuality revealed
when you got to a certain age helped?

I don't.
--
The Judge.
FJR1300 - Transalp
Gone: K1200RS ZZR1200 VL1500LC ZZR1100 GS1000G GSX250
Windows - who's controlling your PC?
Ferger
2006-01-01 10:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Adults that stop their kids seeing sexual images are just perpetuating
the problem. It becomes a matter of mystery and intrigue for them just
as it is for most adults in the UK.
Don't assume you're doing them any favours by trying to keep it from them.
I don't need to assume anything, I accept the advice of child development
professionals. Like, for example, the mother of my children and her
colleagues.

Loz has it pretty much spot-on: It's entirely appropriate to introduce
'difficult' imagery and concepts to children when they are emotionally and
intellectually ready to accommodate them. Doing so any earlier will
probably achieve nothing but can be detrimental.

You're talking cock.
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
Judge
2006-01-01 13:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferger
You're talking cock.
Well, when you put it like that, how can you fail to be utterly convincing?
--
The Judge.
FJR1300 - Transalp
Gone: K1200RS ZZR1200 VL1500LC ZZR1100 GS1000G GSX250
Windows - who's controlling your PC?
Ferger
2006-01-01 17:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Post by Ferger
You're talking cock.
Well, when you put it like that, how can you fail to be utterly convincing?
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything - no-one's going to change
their mind as a result of this. It's an interesting topic to have an
argument over, but I doubt anything said in here is going to change my
views even marginally.

You are talking cock though.
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
d***@burnt.org.uk
2005-12-31 19:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Post by Ferger
<consciousTroll>
I'm also getting a bit sick of lad mags being thrust in kiddy's faces
everywhere. Went down the petrol station with my three year old earlier
and not particularly amused at the giant cardboard display of Nuts, Loaded
etc standing on the floor, so my daughter is looking eye-to-eye with some
barely-clothed bimbo, and forming ideas about the world which I don't
think reflect any sort of reality except that of the average sweaty-palmed
adolescent teenager. Put them on the top-shelf where they belong.
</consciousTroll>
Fuck me! Mary Whitehouse lives.
Go and live in Holland where sex shops openly show explicit shagging
pictures in the window.
And these sex shops are all in certain areas so are easy to avoid if you
don't want to be offended by them.
Post by Judge
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in the
media.
It's not nudity that's the problem. It's the depiction of women as
sexual objects.
steve auvache
2005-12-31 19:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Ferger
<consciousTroll>
<snip> stuff I don't really have any issue with one way or the other.
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
It's the depiction of women as
sexual objects.
Yebbut they are. The minute some young lad works out that there is more
than a free meal to be had out of a pair of tits wimmin are nothing but
objects of desire.
--
steve auvache
still in search of The Perfect Date.
Ferger
2005-12-31 20:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve auvache
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
It's the depiction of women as
sexual objects.
Yebbut they are. The minute some young lad works out that there is more
than a free meal to be had out of a pair of tits wimmin are nothing but
objects of desire.
Sure. I'd just rather my daughter worked this out for herself (and the
extent to which it tells only some of the truth) than constantly have the
message that this is all she can ever aspire to shoved down her throat.

Hmmm. May have been an unwise choice of phrase
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
Ferger
2005-12-31 19:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
It's not nudity that's the problem. It's the depiction of women as
sexual objects.
*ding*
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
Judge
2006-01-01 01:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
And these sex shops are all in certain areas so are easy to avoid if you
don't want to be offended by them.
No they're not. They are all over the place.
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in the
media.
It's not nudity that's the problem. It's the depiction of women as
sexual objects.
This is dogmatic bollocks trotted out by those who only ever listen to the
feminists half of the story. And even that was in the 80s.

There's plenty of imagery of both sexes. It is not a gender issue and hasn't
been for years.
--
The Judge.
FJR1300 - Transalp
Gone: K1200RS ZZR1200 VL1500LC ZZR1100 GS1000G GSX250
Windows - who's controlling your PC?
d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-01 10:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
And these sex shops are all in certain areas so are easy to avoid if you
don't want to be offended by them.
No they're not. They are all over the place.
I've not spent a lot of time in Holland for about 10 years. I used to
spend one week in four there for about 18 months. My experience in Den
Haag (sp?), Alsmeer, Amsterdam and Maastricht was that the sex shops
were all clustered together. Excepting Aalsmeer where I didn't see any.
Post by Judge
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in the
media.
It's not nudity that's the problem. It's the depiction of women as
sexual objects.
This is dogmatic bollocks trotted out by those who only ever listen to the
feminists half of the story. And even that was in the 80s.
It is? I'll take your word for it since of course your view is
independent.
Post by Judge
There's plenty of imagery of both sexes. It is not a gender issue and hasn't
been for years.
Bollocks. Go into any petrol station or newsagents and look at the
shelves. There's 'porn lite' scattered all over the middle shelves and
it's *only* women that are depicted as sexual objects, not men.
MattG
2006-01-02 10:40:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
There's plenty of imagery of both sexes. It is not a gender issue
and hasn't been for years.
Bollocks. Go into any petrol station or newsagents and look at the
shelves. There's 'porn lite' scattered all over the middle shelves
and it's only women that are depicted as sexual objects, not men.
That's not quite true. There are quite a few publications, television
programmes, etc that sexually objectify men. However, the proportions
are far, far higher for those that treat women as such.

The reason that it is a gender issue (this being directed towards
Judge, rather than yourself) is that women have been treated in this
fashion for so long that rather than this being one way of viewing
people, it is one of the more predominant viewpoints. The problem with
this is that it then reflects attitudes which are out of step with
reality.

Woman are still (in general, and in my view) controlled by men, power
in society is held mostly by men. There are many reasons for this - one
(somewhat contentious) is that *in general* men are more likely to want
power/prestige etc than women, so there are more who try for it. This
has the obvious effect of meaning that there are more men in these
positions, this in itself is not a bad thing. The bad thing is that
there is a disparity, not in outcome, but in opportunity.

Part of the reason is the sexualisation of women, as above. If women
are routinely represented as either young innocents, mother figures,
old grannies, or sluts, where is the positive mental image to come
from? This is both for the young girls who are finding their own place
in the world and for those young men who will be interacting with them
and forming the next generation of society.
--
MattG
Too much, too little, too late
d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-02 14:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by MattG
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
There's plenty of imagery of both sexes. It is not a gender issue
and hasn't been for years.
Bollocks. Go into any petrol station or newsagents and look at the
shelves. There's 'porn lite' scattered all over the middle shelves
and it's only women that are depicted as sexual objects, not men.
That's not quite true. There are quite a few publications, television
programmes, etc that sexually objectify men. However, the proportions
are far, far higher for those that treat women as such.
I don't often see half naked men on the cover of magazines on the
'middle shelves'.

<snip>
Post by MattG
Part of the reason is the sexualisation of women, as above. If women
are routinely represented as either young innocents, mother figures,
old grannies, or sluts, where is the positive mental image to come
from? This is both for the young girls who are finding their own place
in the world and for those young men who will be interacting with them
and forming the next generation of society.
Couldn't agree more.
Verdigris
2006-01-02 15:53:52 UTC
Permalink
<SNIP>
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by MattG
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Bollocks. Go into any petrol station or newsagents and look at the
shelves. There's 'porn lite' scattered all over the middle shelves
and it's only women that are depicted as sexual objects, not men.
That's not quite true. There are quite a few publications, television
programmes, etc that sexually objectify men. However, the proportions
are far, far higher for those that treat women as such.
I don't often see half naked men on the cover of magazines on the
'middle shelves'.
There are a number of health and fitness magazines which usually have
bare-chested men on the cover. They don't get the prominence of all the
lad's mags, though.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-02 18:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Verdigris
There are a number of health and fitness magazines which usually have
bare-chested men on the cover. They don't get the prominence of all the
lad's mags, though.
Good point, but the imagary here is fitness and not sexual. Or am I
making the evidence fit my preconceptions...
Work in progress
2006-01-02 23:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Verdigris
There are a number of health and fitness magazines which usually have
bare-chested men on the cover. They don't get the prominence of all the
lad's mags, though.
Good point, but the imagary here is fitness and not sexual.
There's marked differences in things such as amount of clothing,
lighting used, background setting and the like. There is more
sexualisation of male images as well as female now - which isn't
really what I was looking for in the feminism stakes. However (and
I'll dig out a reference for this) sales of magazines aimed at women
drop when there is a male on the cover.

It all boils down to profit eventually.
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Or am I
making the evidence fit my preconceptions...
A quick scan of newsagent's shelves now and then does not a body of
evidence make <g>

Women's magazines also use scantily clad women or women in sexualised
poses to sell the product.

http://www.magforum.com/womens_covers.htm

There's some decent academic research [1] out there on the issues
raised in this thread.

[1] and a load of papers I wouldn't even use under the cat litter
tray.
--
Work in progress
Don't get me started.
Verdigris
2006-01-02 23:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Work in progress
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Verdigris
There are a number of health and fitness magazines which usually have
bare-chested men on the cover. They don't get the prominence of all the
lad's mags, though.
Good point, but the imagary here is fitness and not sexual.
<SNIP>
Post by Work in progress
Women's magazines also use scantily clad women or women in sexualised
poses to sell the product.
I'm pretty sure that's what the health and fitness magazines are trying to
do: "You too can look like this". Pretty much the same thing as the
women's mags.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
Work in progress
2006-01-03 01:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Verdigris
Post by Work in progress
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Verdigris
There are a number of health and fitness magazines which usually have
bare-chested men on the cover. They don't get the prominence of all the
lad's mags, though.
Good point, but the imagary here is fitness and not sexual.
<SNIP>
Post by Work in progress
Women's magazines also use scantily clad women or women in sexualised
poses to sell the product.
I'm pretty sure that's what the health and fitness magazines are trying to
do: "You too can look like this".
<widening the topic somewhat> <and probably not saying anything you
don't already know, bear with me, this is turning into a rant>

Are they satisfying a demand or trying to create a market though?

Looking at WH Smiths (which I think is still one of the major
distribution points for magazines, it's been a while since I've done
media analysis work) their list of available magazines of all types is
here.

http://www.magazine-group.co.uk/whsmith/azlist.php

Now how many of them do you see regular advertising for? IPC and Emap
heavily push those which give them the best returns. Market research
(for certain values of research) feeds back what pushes circulation
up. Risk taking is minimal. Profit is all.

There's a wealth of data on the Audit Bureau of Circulations site for
those who want to see just how much money is involved.
Post by Verdigris
Pretty much the same thing as the
women's mags.
In terms of selling a product, yes.

In terms of presentation in a sexual fashion, nowhere near to the same
extent. Are the male models posed, dressed, lit and presented in the
same way as the women?

A quick google gives

http://www.magazine-group.co.uk/magazines.php?id=72

http://www.magazine-group.co.uk/magazines.php?id=70

as examples of the bare chested 'hunk'. Not IMO in the same league as
the link to the covers of women's magazines I posted earlier.

Plus the presentation of images of men on magazine covers is not
limited to 'glamour' poses, for example various sporting magazines.

And we've not even touched on the pictures used in tabloids yet.

The vast majority of images presented to western society, of both men
and women, by those wishing to sell us bread and circuses are of no
depth and substance and we as a society are impoverished by this.
--
Work in progress
'I beg to dream and differ'
Halla
2006-01-03 15:45:24 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 01:42:14 +0000, Work in progress <***@privacy.net>
blethered:

[...]
Post by Work in progress
In terms of presentation in a sexual fashion, nowhere near to the same
extent. Are the male models posed, dressed, lit and presented in the
same way as the women?
A quick google gives
http://www.magazine-group.co.uk/magazines.php?id=72
http://www.magazine-group.co.uk/magazines.php?id=70
as examples of the bare chested 'hunk'. Not IMO in the same league as
the link to the covers of women's magazines I posted earlier.
Feh. That's still 'Cor, look at the tits on that', just from a
different POV.
Post by Work in progress
Plus the presentation of images of men on magazine covers is not
limited to 'glamour' poses, for example various sporting magazines.
I'm not a reader of the gay end of the market, but if you want blokes
in 'sexy' poses that's where to go, from what I have seen. Kind of
indicates to me that a lot of photographs are put on/in magazines with
the aim of titillating men, really. Or encouraging women to spend a
lot of time attaining such a look themselves so they can titillate
men.

I know we are repeatedly told that men are more visual creatures but
it's not much of an excuse for using sex to sell everything. Shampoo,
FFS - it gets your hair clean, it doesn't cause instant orgasms when
you put it on your head. I mean, I *like* looking at sexy women, but
all these overly sexualised poses and so on do nothing for me, and I'd
be surprised if most men found them that attractive, if they thought
about it for more than a sexond. <shrugs>

It's insulting to all - hey men, did you know that you're only capable
of appreciating a 2D, single-aspect representation of a woman, one who
has spent hours being primped and pampered and who probably gets some
airbrushing too? That *one* photographic moment of her life is all you
get, enjoy!

<snip>
Champ
2006-01-03 16:07:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:45:24 +0000, Halla
Post by Halla
I know we are repeatedly told that men are more visual creatures but
it's not much of an excuse for using sex to sell everything. Shampoo,
FFS - it gets your hair clean, it doesn't cause instant orgasms when
you put it on your head. I mean, I *like* looking at sexy women, but
all these overly sexualised poses and so on do nothing for me, and I'd
be surprised if most men found them that attractive, if they thought
about it for more than a sexond. <shrugs>
Dr Freud, your slip is showing. :-)
Post by Halla
It's insulting to all - hey men, did you know that you're only capable
of appreciating a 2D, single-aspect representation of a woman, one who
has spent hours being primped and pampered and who probably gets some
airbrushing too?
Yes, I did, thank you.
--
Champ
Halla
2006-01-04 02:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:45:24 +0000, Halla
Post by Halla
I know we are repeatedly told that men are more visual creatures but
it's not much of an excuse for using sex to sell everything. Shampoo,
FFS - it gets your hair clean, it doesn't cause instant orgasms when
you put it on your head. I mean, I *like* looking at sexy women, but
all these overly sexualised poses and so on do nothing for me, and I'd
be surprised if most men found them that attractive, if they thought
about it for more than a sexond. <shrugs>
Dr Freud, your slip is showing. :-)
Dagnabbit. Thought I'd corrected that, too. :-)
Post by Champ
Post by Halla
It's insulting to all - hey men, did you know that you're only capable
of appreciating a 2D, single-aspect representation of a woman, one who
has spent hours being primped and pampered and who probably gets some
airbrushing too?
Yes, I did, thank you.
Now that's not nice. How can I possibly reply to that politely? <g>
Verdigris
2006-01-03 22:40:17 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:45:24 +0000, Halla wrote:

<SNIP>
Post by Halla
It's insulting to all - hey men, did you know that you're only capable
of appreciating a 2D, single-aspect representation of a woman, one who
has spent hours being primped and pampered and who probably gets some
airbrushing too? That *one* photographic moment of her life is all you
get, enjoy!
It also present unrealistic images to men, so that they aspire to a mate
who approaches a physical ideal, and of course puts pressure on them to
conform to a male ideal so that they might find such a mate. The same goes
for women, of course.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
Bear
2006-01-03 23:09:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:40:17 +0000, Verdigris said ...
Post by Verdigris
<SNIP>
Post by Halla
It's insulting to all - hey men, did you know that you're only capable
of appreciating a 2D, single-aspect representation of a woman, one who
has spent hours being primped and pampered and who probably gets some
airbrushing too? That *one* photographic moment of her life is all you
get, enjoy!
It also present unrealistic images to men, so that they aspire to a mate
who approaches a physical ideal, and of course puts pressure on them to
conform to a male ideal so that they might find such a mate. The same goes
for women, of course.
Steady on!

Nowt wrong with shagging fit birds.
--
Bear
BMW 740iL - Stately Progress For The Mature Gentleman
Halla
2006-01-04 02:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Verdigris
<SNIP>
Post by Halla
It's insulting to all - hey men, did you know that you're only capable
of appreciating a 2D, single-aspect representation of a woman, one who
has spent hours being primped and pampered and who probably gets some
airbrushing too? That *one* photographic moment of her life is all you
get, enjoy!
It also present unrealistic images to men, so that they aspire to a mate
who approaches a physical ideal,
Part of what I was getting at there.
Post by Verdigris
and of course puts pressure on them to
conform to a male ideal so that they might find such a mate. The same goes
for women, of course.
Well yeah. Is there a male ideal in the same way though? It's
difficult for men to be as obviously sexualised as women, perhaps it's
years of conditioning but most men look bloody stupid if they try any
of the standard magazine poses. (So do a lot of women, obviously, but
they tend to have body parts that distract - men get six packs, that's
about it.)
Verdigris
2006-01-04 21:14:53 UTC
Permalink
<SNIP>
Post by Halla
Post by Verdigris
and of course puts pressure on them to
conform to a male ideal so that they might find such a mate. The same goes
for women, of course.
Well yeah. Is there a male ideal in the same way though? It's
difficult for men to be as obviously sexualised as women, perhaps it's
years of conditioning but most men look bloody stupid if they try any
of the standard magazine poses. (So do a lot of women, obviously, but
they tend to have body parts that distract - men get six packs, that's
about it.)
I think that there *is* such an ideal. Well defined musculature, (without
getting into the realm of serious body-builders), six-pack, little or no
body hair, large cock, tall. Obviously male poses will be different from
female poses because they'd be trying to emphasise different attributes.

Perhaps not as extreme - and unhealthy! - as some of the female ideals but
definitely not "natural". The relatively recent advent of fake muscle
implants for men is surely an indication that things are heading in the
same direction.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
Lozzo
2006-01-04 22:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Verdigris said...
Post by Verdigris
I think that there *is* such an ideal. Well defined musculature, (without
getting into the realm of serious body-builders), six-pack, little or no
body hair, large cock.
So why am I single?
--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-04 22:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lozzo
Verdigris said...
Post by Verdigris
I think that there *is* such an ideal. Well defined musculature, (without
getting into the realm of serious body-builders), six-pack, little or no
body hair, large cock.
So why am I single?
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
Lozzo
2006-01-04 22:59:30 UTC
Permalink
said...
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Lozzo
Verdigris said...
Post by Verdigris
I think that there *is* such an ideal. Well defined musculature, (without
getting into the realm of serious body-builders), six-pack, little or no
body hair, large cock.
So why am I single?
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
I don't have body hair.
--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
Wicked Uncle Nigel
2006-01-04 23:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Lozzo
Post by Lozzo
said...
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Lozzo
Verdigris said...
Post by Verdigris
I think that there *is* such an ideal. Well defined musculature, (without
getting into the realm of serious body-builders), six-pack, little or no
body hair, large cock.
So why am I single?
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
I don't have body hair.
Please, for the love of Ged, let's all just agree to believe him. OK?

Please.
--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - There are few things in life more sinister than a
public toilet with the lid closed.

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (On its hols) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"
Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha GTS1000
ginge
2006-01-05 00:14:05 UTC
Permalink
In article <4$***@rcav8r.demon.co.uk>, Wicked Uncle Nigel
says...
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Lozzo
Post by Lozzo
said...
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Lozzo
So why am I single?
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
I don't have body hair.
Please, for the love of Ged, let's all just agree to believe him. OK?
I'll believe him, simply because he's got all the mannerisms of Barry
Chuckle.
Lozzo
2006-01-05 00:21:14 UTC
Permalink
ginge said...
Post by ginge
says...
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Lozzo
Post by Lozzo
said...
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Lozzo
So why am I single?
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
I don't have body hair.
Please, for the love of Ged, let's all just agree to believe him. OK?
I'll believe him, simply because he's got all the mannerisms of Barry
Chuckle.
And you have his sense of humour.
--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
ginge
2006-01-05 00:26:53 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.individual.net>, Lozzo
says...
Post by Lozzo
ginge said...
Post by ginge
says...
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Lozzo
Post by Lozzo
said...
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Lozzo
So why am I single?
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
I don't have body hair.
Please, for the love of Ged, let's all just agree to believe him. OK?
I'll believe him, simply because he's got all the mannerisms of Barry
Chuckle.
And you have his sense of humour.
LOL!
Adrienne M Bonwick
2006-01-05 12:07:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:14:05 -0000, ginge
Post by ginge
says...
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Lozzo
Post by Lozzo
said...
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Lozzo
So why am I single?
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
I don't have body hair.
Please, for the love of Ged, let's all just agree to believe him. OK?
I'll believe him, simply because he's got all the mannerisms of Barry
Chuckle.
you owe me half a sandwich and a keyboard.
--
Adie
(replace spam with nickname to reply)

UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/

Triumph 955iSS / ZX9R E1 / GSF1200 bandit (for sale) / CG125
MRO#11 BOTAFOF#7 BOTAFOT#130 DIAABTCOD#17 MIB#24 YTC#16 BOB#15 ex-UKRMMA#22 BOMB#11
Champ
2006-01-05 12:16:18 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:07:43 +0000, Adrienne M Bonwick
Post by Adrienne M Bonwick
Post by ginge
Post by Wicked Uncle Nigel
Post by Lozzo
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Lozzo
So why am I single?
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
I don't have body hair.
Please, for the love of Ged, let's all just agree to believe him. OK?
I'll believe him, simply because he's got all the mannerisms of Barry
Chuckle.
you owe me half a sandwich and a keyboard.
You bugger - you made me do a web search to look up who Barry Chuckle
is now. Not that I found anything very useful - some sort of
comedian, yes?
--
Champ
Ace
2006-01-05 12:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Champ
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:07:43 +0000, Adrienne M Bonwick
Post by Adrienne M Bonwick
Post by ginge
I'll believe him, simply because he's got all the mannerisms of Barry
Chuckle.
you owe me half a sandwich and a keyboard.
You bugger - you made me do a web search to look up who Barry Chuckle
is now. Not that I found anything very useful - some sort of
comedian, yes?
No.
--
_______
.'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2
`\|/`
`
Grimly Curmudgeon
2006-01-04 23:15:12 UTC
Permalink
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
Post by Lozzo
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Read again, he said "little or no body hair, large cock", not "large
body hair, little or no cock".
I don't have body hair.
I don't want to know, tyvm.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a
I demand nothing of you except that you amuse me.
Verdigris
2006-01-03 22:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Work in progress
Post by Verdigris
Post by Work in progress
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Verdigris
There are a number of health and fitness magazines which usually have
bare-chested men on the cover. They don't get the prominence of all the
lad's mags, though.
Good point, but the imagary here is fitness and not sexual.
<SNIP>
Post by Work in progress
Women's magazines also use scantily clad women or women in sexualised
poses to sell the product.
I'm pretty sure that's what the health and fitness magazines are trying to
do: "You too can look like this".
<widening the topic somewhat> <and probably not saying anything you
don't already know, bear with me, this is turning into a rant>
Are they satisfying a demand or trying to create a market though?
How does one tell the difference?

<SNIP>
Post by Work in progress
Post by Verdigris
Pretty much the same thing as the
women's mags.
In terms of selling a product, yes.
In terms of presentation in a sexual fashion, nowhere near to the same
extent. Are the male models posed, dressed, lit and presented in the
same way as the women?
Not in the *same* way, because male and female beauty have different
criteria. But carefully posed, dressed and lit.
Post by Work in progress
A quick google gives
http://www.magazine-group.co.uk/magazines.php?id=72
http://www.magazine-group.co.uk/magazines.php?id=70
as examples of the bare chested 'hunk'. Not IMO in the same league as
the link to the covers of women's magazines I posted earlier.
Well, I beg to differ. I'd say that they were every bit as sexual as most
of those women's magazines' covers. It's possible for the publishers to
be slightly more explicit with photos of women, perhaps: female breasts
are permissible yet still (if you'll forgive me) titillating. Male chests
lack that frisson and penises are generally not acceptable in mainstream
publications - certainly not on the cover.
Post by Work in progress
Plus the presentation of images of men on magazine covers is not limited
to 'glamour' poses, for example various sporting magazines.
I'd have to concede that. There *are* women's magazines which don't use
obviously sexual imagary but they appear to be aimed at older women. And
there are sports magazines covering women's sports, (although those might
well be considered to be using sexual imagary).

I think that the "exploitation" of male imagery in this way will become
more widespread. It's a relatively young market. Look at the increasing
number of male-specific toiletries and cosmetics.

Co-incidentally I was looking for a beard trimmer today and was surprised
to find quite a lot of products intended for male body depilation, which I
don't remember seeing before. Men are becoming much more body-conscious.
Whether this is the cause or effect of changes in advertising etc I don't
know.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
Verdigris
2006-01-02 23:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Verdigris
There are a number of health and fitness magazines which usually have
bare-chested men on the cover. They don't get the prominence of all the
lad's mags, though.
Good point, but the imagary here is fitness and not sexual. Or am I
making the evidence fit my preconceptions...
I think you are, to an extent. Men are shown as sex objects, but rather
more powerful ones than women. And they are, generally, at least
physically healthy rather than borederline anorexic, although that seems
to be changing a bit, in both directions, as far as I can tell.

i.e. More men with eating disorders; somewhat more voluptuous female
imagery.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
Work in progress
2006-01-02 23:42:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 01:42:52 +0000, Judge
Post by Judge
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
And these sex shops are all in certain areas so are easy to avoid if you
don't want to be offended by them.
No they're not. They are all over the place.
Perhaps one of our Holland residents would like to comment here. It's
been a long time since I was over there but back then it was distinct
districts. And sex shops are not the issue here anyway, it is the
depiction of women and what that means to the next generation.
Post by Judge
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Judge
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in the
media.
It's not nudity that's the problem. It's the depiction of women as
sexual objects.
This is dogmatic bollocks
You are so wrong.
Post by Judge
trotted out by those who only ever listen to the
feminists half of the story.
Really? What's the other half of the story then?
Post by Judge
And even that was in the 80s.
Really? Very little has changed since then. Current research suggests
that the images of women that prevail in western culture are
predominately sexualised in nature and positive empowering role models
are few and far between.
Post by Judge
There's plenty of imagery of both sexes.
Perhaps you could produce some examples of the front covers of popular
magazines that show men in a sexual fashion. Then look at the
proportion of all magazines covers that those (if you can find them)
represent.
Post by Judge
It is not a gender issue and hasn't
been for years.
It is, it always has been and probably always will be.
--
Work in progress
Don't get me started.
sweller
2005-12-31 20:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Post by Ferger
I'm also getting a bit sick of lad mags being thrust in kiddy's faces
everywhere. Went down the petrol station with my three year old
earlier and not particularly amused at the giant cardboard display of
Nuts, Loaded etc standing on the floor, so my daughter is looking
eye-to-eye with some barely-clothed bimbo, and forming ideas about
the world which I don't think reflect any sort of reality except that
of the average sweaty-palmed adolescent teenager. Put them on the
top-shelf where they belong.
</consciousTroll>
Fuck me! Mary Whitehouse lives.
Go and live in Holland where sex shops openly show explicit shagging
pictures in the window.
You have to wonder just what the problem is with displays of nudity in
the media.
Further to my "you're a wanker" comment. Which now appears to be working
on several levels.

The concern here is not the nudity per se but the child's perception of
her place in the world; specifically as a female.

Not only are you a wanker but stupid too. Bonus Credit.
--
Simon
Judge
2006-01-01 01:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by sweller
Further to my "you're a wanker" comment. Which now appears to be working
on several levels.
The concern here is not the nudity per se but the child's perception of
her place in the world; specifically as a female.
Not only are you a wanker but stupid too. Bonus Credit.
Why do you think that children are less able to deal with nudity than
adults?

You are the one who has overloaded nudity with confused feelings. Don't
assume others can't deal with it too.
--
The Judge.
FJR1300 - Transalp
Gone: K1200RS ZZR1200 VL1500LC ZZR1100 GS1000G GSX250
Windows - who's controlling your PC?
Lozzo
2006-01-01 04:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Judge said...
Post by Judge
Post by sweller
Further to my "you're a wanker" comment. Which now appears to be working
on several levels.
The concern here is not the nudity per se but the child's perception of
her place in the world; specifically as a female.
Not only are you a wanker but stupid too. Bonus Credit.
Why do you think that children are less able to deal with nudity than
adults?
You are the one who has overloaded nudity with confused feelings. Don't
assume others can't deal with it too.
I'll add my AOL to Sweller's "you're a wanker" comment.

When they were very young, my kids - son included - were left to grow up
as children first and adults later later in life.

Both their mother's felt the same, so sexual images and talk of any kind
were left for those old enough to understand or appreciate them. We
didn't want our kids losing their innocence and growing up before they
were ready and able to understand what sex and sexuality was about. Once
they reached a suitable time in each of their lives it was explained as
far as they needed to know, and from there on they were able to ask
questions and get guidance/advice as and when needed from their parents.
it helped that the schools they went/go to are sensible enough to give
more in depth sex education than we had at school.

We are lucky in that all our kids are able to talk to us about
absolutely anything, and when those kids are 3 girls aged 24, 16 and 14,
plus a son aged 12, between us we all think we did the right thing.

Kids do not need to see graphic sexual images when they are not
emotionally, educationally or physically ready to cope with the reality.
--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-01 10:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lozzo
When they were very young, my kids - son included - were left to grow up
as children first and adults later later in life.
Both their mother's felt the same, so sexual images and talk of any kind
were left for those old enough to understand or appreciate them. We
didn't want our kids losing their innocence and growing up before they
were ready and able to understand what sex and sexuality was about. Once
they reached a suitable time in each of their lives it was explained as
far as they needed to know, and from there on they were able to ask
questions and get guidance/advice as and when needed from their parents.
it helped that the schools they went/go to are sensible enough to give
more in depth sex education than we had at school.
We are lucky in that all our kids are able to talk to us about
absolutely anything, and when those kids are 3 girls aged 24, 16 and 14,
plus a son aged 12, between us we all think we did the right thing.
Kids do not need to see graphic sexual images when they are not
emotionally, educationally or physically ready to cope with the reality.
I couldn't really argue with any of this.

Add in Sweller's comment about young girls' perception of 'their place'
and you've got the full score.
Judge
2006-01-01 13:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lozzo
I'll add my AOL to Sweller's "you're a wanker" comment.
I would expect nothing less.
Post by Lozzo
When they were very young, my kids - son included - were left to grow up
as children first and adults later later in life.
Both their mother's felt the same, so sexual images and talk of any kind
were left for those old enough to understand or appreciate them. We
didn't want our kids losing their innocence and growing up before they
were ready and able to understand what sex and sexuality was about. Once
they reached a suitable time in each of their lives it was explained as
far as they needed to know, and from there on they were able to ask
questions and get guidance/advice as and when needed from their parents.
it helped that the schools they went/go to are sensible enough to give
more in depth sex education than we had at school.
We are lucky in that all our kids are able to talk to us about
absolutely anything, and when those kids are 3 girls aged 24, 16 and 14,
plus a son aged 12, between us we all think we did the right thing.
Kids do not need to see graphic sexual images when they are not
emotionally, educationally or physically ready to cope with the reality.
Kids can cope with reality from day 1. It is you that hides reality until
you feel that *you're* ready to cope with them knowing about it.

Why should sex and all the related issues be any more of a struggle for an
infant mind than all the other things they need to learn about in life?

Loving parents shagging in front of kids happens the world over in places
where families don't have the luxury of seperate rooms. The kids don't grow
up disturbed.

And in pre-Christian times, the femail form was worshipped in a much more
blatent way than it is now.

It is violence that causes trauma in children not sexual images.
--
The Judge.
FJR1300 - Transalp
Gone: K1200RS ZZR1200 VL1500LC ZZR1100 GS1000G GSX250
Windows - who's controlling your PC?
Ferger
2006-01-02 01:42:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Kids can cope with reality from day 1.
They can't you know. Well, they can *cope*, but they're likely to suffer
significant developmental problems if you expose them to material that
they're not emotionally or intellectually capable of responding to.
Generally, a child's interpretation of the sexual act is that the Daddy
is hurting the Mummy. This is true up until about day 4000. Not really
day 1.
Post by Judge
It is you that hides reality
until you feel that *you're* ready to cope with them knowing about it.
I think it's more that Loz has a natural inclination to bring up his
children in a way that protects them from what they can deal with, and
his instincts are absolutely right. Which is kind of what you'd expect
in the majority or caring parents.
Post by Judge
Why should sex and all the related issues be any more of a struggle
for an infant mind than all the other things they need to learn about
in life?
Because sex, in the infant mind, is entirely inexplicable. Totally
outside the boundaries of what an infant can understand - so they attempt
to make sense of it in a way that is completely wrong.
Post by Judge
Loving parents shagging in front of kids happens the world over in
places where families don't have the luxury of seperate rooms.
I *think* this is utter crap, but I don't have anything to base the
opinion on. I just know that shagging in front of my children is
something I would so *not* be doing, regardless of the circumstances,
that I believe it to be total nonsense. Cite examples of cultures where
this is known to happen please.
Post by Judge
The
kids don't grow up disturbed.
And in pre-Christian times, the femail form was worshipped in a much
more blatent way than it is now.
And the way mankind lived then, that was a model for the modern day?
Right..
Post by Judge
It is violence that causes trauma in children not sexual images.
That, as well, certainly.
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
Verdigris
2006-01-02 16:04:49 UTC
Permalink
<SNIP>
Post by Ferger
Post by Judge
Why should sex and all the related issues be any more of a struggle
for an infant mind than all the other things they need to learn about
in life?
Because sex, in the infant mind, is entirely inexplicable. Totally
outside the boundaries of what an infant can understand - so they attempt
to make sense of it in a way that is completely wrong.
I think that one could consider human sexuality to be an advanced subject
of study. If you want to learn about, say, physics you don't jump straight to
String Theory: you start off with more basic things and gradually work up
to the complicated stuff over many years of study.[1]

Similarly before people can understand sexual relationships they need to
have some grasp of more general human relationships - something that could
be even more difficult than the most advanced science.

[1] It's an analogy: don't expect too much of it.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
Verdigris
2006-01-02 15:58:50 UTC
Permalink
<SNIP>
Post by Ferger
Post by Judge
Loving parents shagging in front of kids happens the world over in
places where families don't have the luxury of seperate rooms.
I *think* this is utter crap, but I don't have anything to base the
opinion on. I just know that shagging in front of my children is
something I would so *not* be doing, regardless of the circumstances,
that I believe it to be total nonsense. Cite examples of cultures where
this is known to happen please.
I *suspect* he's not thinking of outright exhibitionism, but rather
those societies where the family live in relatively small accomodation, so
parents are unlikely to have a lot of privacy.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
Ferger
2006-01-02 21:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Verdigris
I *suspect* he's not thinking of outright exhibitionism, but rather
those societies where the family live in relatively small
accomodation, so parents are unlikely to have a lot of privacy.
Well, so do I - but if he wants to couch that as 'Loving parents shagging
in front of kids happens the world over' I'll respond to it. I'm sure
there are millions of parents who have little choice but to shag in the
same room as their children occasionally, but I don't believe any of them
do so in a way that doesn't try and mask their activities. If you accept
the latter, the argument's essentially void.
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
Verdigris
2006-01-03 00:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferger
Post by Verdigris
I *suspect* he's not thinking of outright exhibitionism, but rather
those societies where the family live in relatively small
accomodation, so parents are unlikely to have a lot of privacy.
Well, so do I - but if he wants to couch that as 'Loving parents shagging
in front of kids happens the world over' I'll respond to it. I'm sure
there are millions of parents who have little choice but to shag in the
same room as their children occasionally, but I don't believe any of them
do so in a way that doesn't try and mask their activities. If you accept
the latter, the argument's essentially void.
I think it would demonstrate a somewhat more open attitude towards sexual
relations, but it also shows them as a somewhat private thing between a
married couple and not something that the kids need to or should have
explicit knowledge of.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
MattG
2006-01-02 10:53:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Kids can cope with reality from day 1. It is you that hides reality
until you feel that you're ready to cope with them knowing about it.
There is a massive difference between reality and perceived reality. A
child's perception will be different to yours, they will lack the same
context that you have. Irrespective of how you try to explain it, their
interpretation will be different.
Post by Judge
Why should sex and all the related issues be any more of a struggle
for an infant mind than all the other things they need to learn about
in life?
Sex is not really the issue here, imo. This is more about how we view
each other, and what roles and stereotypes we force upon others.
Post by Judge
Loving parents shagging in front of kids happens the world over in
places where families don't have the luxury of seperate rooms. The
kids don't grow up disturbed.
This is quite true. However, there is a very big difference between sex
and sexualistion.
Post by Judge
And in pre-Christian times, the femail form was worshipped in a much
more blatent way than it is now.
As was then is better than now?
Post by Judge
It is violence that causes trauma in children not sexual images.
It's quite true that violence causes trauma in children, but sexual
images and sexualisation can also do this, as can violent sexual images.
--
MattG
Reassembly is not the reverse of disassembly
d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-02 14:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by MattG
Post by Judge
Why should sex and all the related issues be any more of a struggle
for an infant mind than all the other things they need to learn about
in life?
Sex is not really the issue here, imo. This is more about how we view
each other, and what roles and stereotypes we force upon others.
Many others have pointed out that the objection was not about sex in
this thread.
MattG
2006-01-02 22:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by MattG
Post by Judge
Why should sex and all the related issues be any more of a struggle
for an infant mind than all the other things they need to learn
about >> in life?
Post by MattG
Sex is not really the issue here, imo. This is more about how we
view each other, and what roles and stereotypes we force upon
others.
Many others have pointed out that the objection was not about sex in
this thread.
True, but I've been away and had only read part of the thread at that
point. Besides, it's Judge - the point bears repeating.
--
MattG
Replete
Work in progress
2006-01-02 23:53:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:30:40 +0000, Judge
Post by Judge
And in pre-Christian times, the femail form was worshipped in a much more
blatent way than it is now.
<smiles sweetly>

Would you like to debate this issue? Because in every civilisation
that we have records for, in terms of art and writings, the images all
boil down to the maiden, the mother, the hag and the whore. Much as
now. The difference is that in some cultures, evidence suggests that
the qualities and attributes attached to those labels were starkly
different.

We no longer worship the female form, we exploit it.
--
Work in progress
'I beg to dream and differ'
d***@burnt.org.uk
2006-01-03 06:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Work in progress
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:30:40 +0000, Judge
Post by Judge
And in pre-Christian times, the femail form was worshipped in a much more
blatent way than it is now.
<smiles sweetly>
Would you like to debate this issue? Because in every civilisation
that we have records for, in terms of art and writings, the images all
boil down to the maiden, the mother, the hag and the whore. Much as
now. The difference is that in some cultures, evidence suggests that
the qualities and attributes attached to those labels were starkly
different.
We no longer worship the female form, we exploit it.
I'm rather glad I seem to be on approximately the same side of this
discussion as you.
Work in progress
2006-01-03 20:50:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Post by Work in progress
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:30:40 +0000, Judge
Post by Judge
And in pre-Christian times, the femail form was worshipped in a much more
blatent way than it is now.
<smiles sweetly>
Would you like to debate this issue? Because in every civilisation
that we have records for, in terms of art and writings, the images all
boil down to the maiden, the mother, the hag and the whore. Much as
now. The difference is that in some cultures, evidence suggests that
the qualities and attributes attached to those labels were starkly
different.
We no longer worship the female form, we exploit it.
I'm rather glad I seem to be on approximately the same side of this
discussion as you.
I don't bite. Much.

I'm disappointed, I've had the first good rant of the year and now no
one is playing.
--
Work in progress
Not at all scary.
Verdigris
2006-01-03 22:41:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:50:05 +0000, Work in progress wrote:

<SNIP>
Post by Work in progress
I'm disappointed, I've had the first good rant of the year and now no
one is playing.
I think the problem is that there's only one person on the other side of
the argument in this case. You should have got here sooner, before he got
scared off.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Triumph Tiger. Big trailees - you know they make sense.
Z1000 - less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
Judge
2006-01-03 23:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Verdigris
<SNIP>
Post by Work in progress
I'm disappointed, I've had the first good rant of the year and now no
one is playing.
I think the problem is that there's only one person on the other side of
the argument in this case. You should have got here sooner, before he got
scared off.
It had all been said and most of the counter arguments were too rambling,
ill considered or pointless to be worth further effort.

I did ponder the age of consent question for a while though and decided I
didn't know the answer.

I've decided to leave it were it is for now.
--
The Judge.
FJR1300 - Transalp
Gone: K1200RS ZZR1200 VL1500LC ZZR1100 GS1000G GSX250
Windows - who's controlling your PC?
Ferger
2006-01-04 00:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
It had all been said and most of the counter arguments were too rambling,
ill considered or pointless to be worth further effort.
Oh, you can do patronising in the face of adversity then? Go on then: Pick
one of each that is demonstrably rambling, ill considered or pointless. I
can see one or two that might qualify on the first count (despite some
validity), but I'm struggling with the others.

Or you could retire from the discussion *gracefully*. Up to you.

Sweller got it right on first assessment, frankly.
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
Halla
2006-01-04 02:15:53 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:53:02 +0000, Judge
Post by Judge
Post by Verdigris
<SNIP>
Post by Work in progress
I'm disappointed, I've had the first good rant of the year and now no
one is playing.
I think the problem is that there's only one person on the other side of
the argument in this case. You should have got here sooner, before he got
scared off.
It had all been said and most of the counter arguments were too rambling,
ill considered or pointless to be worth further effort.
I found your arguments fairly ill considered too, TBH: wasn't it you
who kept mixing up nudity and sex? Does 'pointless' mean 'you don't
have a ready answer and CBA thinking of one'? Merely in the interests
of clarity, like.
Post by Judge
I did ponder the age of consent question for a while though and decided I
didn't know the answer.
I've decided to leave it were it is for now.
Jolly good.
sweller
2006-01-01 12:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Why do you think that children are less able to deal with nudity than
adults?
You're unable, or unwilling, to make a distinction between the issues.
It isn't the nudity that's the problem it's the reinforcing the child's
position in life particularly in the context of /sexuality/

The child is just that and has no experience, understanding or context to
deal with the subject.
Post by Judge
You are the one who has overloaded nudity with confused feelings. Don't
assume others can't deal with it too.
I'll assume this is an insult. May I suggest you come up with something
a little better as you're not very good at it.
--
Simon
Judge
2006-01-01 13:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
Why do you think that children are less able to deal with nudity than
adults?
You're unable, or unwilling, to make a distinction between the issues.
It isn't the nudity that's the problem it's the reinforcing the child's
position in life particularly in the context of /sexuality/
The child is just that and has no experience, understanding or context to
deal with the subject.
And why is that? It's because the whole issue is hidden from them until
their teens.

It's an artificial situation that has arisen from Christian pressures that
taught that sex was dirty and shameful.

Before that sexual imagery was widespread and more in your face than ever it
is today. The only problem was they had limited means to express it. All
that remains are a few carvings and paintings.
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
You are the one who has overloaded nudity with confused feelings. Don't
assume others can't deal with it too.
I'll assume this is an insult. May I suggest you come up with something
a little better as you're not very good at it.
It's an observation based on your earlier comments. You're the one that got
abusive, not me.

If you want to take offence, go ahead. As I said, that's your problem.
--
The Judge.
FJR1300 - Transalp
Gone: K1200RS ZZR1200 VL1500LC ZZR1100 GS1000G GSX250
Windows - who's controlling your PC?
Lozzo
2006-01-01 13:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Judge said...
Post by Judge
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
Why do you think that children are less able to deal with nudity than
adults?
You're unable, or unwilling, to make a distinction between the issues.
It isn't the nudity that's the problem it's the reinforcing the child's
position in life particularly in the context of /sexuality/
There is a big difference between nudity and sexuality. None of my kids
has a problem with nudity, they can handle that in a responsible manner.
They see naked people and they just think they are people without
clothes. Neither of their mother's nor I was particularly shy around
them and they knew what naked adults looked like from an early age. I
sometimes see my eldest daughter naked and while I can appreciate her
natural beauty and lovely figure, I don't see her as a sexual being. I
didn't want her growing up thinking she is someone else's sexual object
either.
Post by Judge
Post by sweller
The child is just that and has no experience, understanding or context to
deal with the subject.
And why is that? It's because the whole issue is hidden from them until
their teens.
As it should be. Children should be left to be children. Adult issues
such as sex and sexuality should be introduced when the child is of an
age where they can handle the responsibilty of their "awakening" in an
adult manner. It's a part of growing up.

The whole question of sex and what it is all about with regard to humans
should be left until the child approaches or reaches puberty. Imo, and
that of the vast majority of parents, no child should have to deal with
it before that. Like Burnt I grew up in a small farming village, we saw
the reality of animal reprodcution all around us, but when it comes to
humans there is a love/emotional issue to deal with too. My exes and I
didn't want our children growing up thinking it was ok to sleep around
like farm animals do. We have a moral responsibilty to our children to
bring them up to accept loving relationships are where sex takes place.

We should never confuse our own sexual preferneces with what is
acceptable for children to learn. As adults our kids can make their own
minds up as to what they like or who they sleep with, but as teenagers
going through puberty when it comes to teaching them about sex we owe it
to them to guide them into loving relationships as being acceptable and
normal. If they want to join a Swinging Club later in life then fair
play, I've done my bit and as far as I'm concerned I did it well.
Post by Judge
It's an artificial situation that has arisen from Christian pressures that
taught that sex was dirty and shameful.
That's because the vast majority of the sexual images protrayed are
demeaning to women. A young child will only see what they see, no matter
how hard you try they don't understand that the woman may be consenting
purely for a photograph or video, they see a woman being treated as an
object. They soon forget the comforting words that Mummy or Daddy may
have said about it only being a film/picture and that it's not really
like that when they grow up - they have an image in their head and it
stays for life. I don't want my three girls growing up thinking they are
there to be used for men's sexual pleasure, I want them to grow up as an
equal partner in whatever they do.
Post by Judge
Before that sexual imagery was widespread and more in your face than ever it
is today. The only problem was they had limited means to express it. All
that remains are a few carvings and paintings.
That doesn't make it acceptable. We used to have public hangings that
children attended, we also went to war more often and slaughtered black
people wholesale purely because of the colour of their skin, that
doesn't make showing sexual images to children acceptable in modern
society.

If you think it's acceptable then why not go the whole hog and show
children pictures of other children being sexually abused. After all,
some adults like it so it must be ok.
Post by Judge
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
You are the one who has overloaded nudity with confused feelings. Don't
assume others can't deal with it too.
I'll assume this is an insult. May I suggest you come up with something
a little better as you're not very good at it.
It's an observation based on your earlier comments. You're the one that got
abusive, not me.
If you want to take offence, go ahead. As I said, that's your problem.
I don't take offence at what you say. I just agree with the others when
they say that you're a cock.
--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
The Older Gentleman
2006-01-01 14:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lozzo
There is a big difference between nudity and sexuality. None of my kids
has a problem with nudity, they can handle that in a responsible manner.
They see naked people and they just think they are people without
clothes.
*LOUD DING*
--
Trophy 1200 750SS XS650 CB400F CB125S DT50MX
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
Wicked Uncle Nigel
2006-01-01 14:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Judge
Post by Judge
Post by sweller
Post by Judge
Why do you think that children are less able to deal with nudity than
adults?
You're unable, or unwilling, to make a distinction between the issues.
It isn't the nudity that's the problem it's the reinforcing the child's
position in life particularly in the context of /sexuality/
The child is just that and has no experience, understanding or context to
deal with the subject.
And why is that? It's because the whole issue is hidden from them until
their teens.
It's an artificial situation that has arisen from Christian pressures that
taught that sex was dirty and shameful.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think the age of consent should be?
--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - There are few things in life more sinister than a
public toilet with the lid closed.

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (On its hols) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"
Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha GTS1000
Ferger
2006-01-01 17:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Judge
Before that sexual imagery was widespread and more in your face than
ever it is today. The only problem was they had limited means to
express it. All that remains are a few carvings and paintings.
There is NIL basis for arguing that this was 'better'. If you accept that
society betters itself as it matures, this is, at best (from your POV)
irrelevant.
--
F

Sprint RS "Big Yellow"
COO#1
d***@hotmail.com
2006-01-03 20:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferger
Post by d***@burnt.org.uk
Whilst it doesn't offend me because of what it does to the characters,
it offends me that some fuck-head got paid to waste his/her time on such
rubbish. I'd also not have been too chuffed to have had to explain it
to my children when they were younger.
Entirely agree. It's a vaguely amusing caricature, but it has no place on
a public billboard.
<consciousTroll>
I'm also getting a bit sick of lad mags being thrust in kiddy's faces
everywhere. Went down the petrol station with my three year old earlier
and not particularly amused at the giant cardboard display of Nuts, Loaded
etc standing on the floor, so my daughter is looking eye-to-eye with some
barely-clothed bimbo, and forming ideas about the world which I don't think
reflect any sort of reality except that of the average sweaty-palmed
adolescent teenager. Put them on the top-shelf where they belong.
</consciousTroll>
--
F
Vaguely apropos of the topic:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?ile=/news/archive/2006/01/03/national/a095221S55.DTL

Orlando Swinger Party Upsets Soccer Parents
-
Tuesday, January 3, 2006

(01-03) 09:52 PST Orlando, Fla. (AP) --

Some teenage soccer players and their parents saw more sights than they
wanted when they stayed at a hotel where about 200 swingers were having
a New Year's party.

Paul Camporini brought his wife, seventh-grade daughter and
eighth-grade son from Safety Harbor and said he had to "delicately
explain to my Catholic school children that swingers change partners
during the evening."

"My biggest gripe is that the hotel had two distinctly different groups
under the same roof," said Camporini, 49. "A soccer team and
middle-aged swingers should not have been booked together."

The families said the sexually adventurous partygoers sometimes flashed
breasts and bare buttocks in front of the children as they sashayed
through the hotel atrium. The parents described the dress at the Crowne
Plaza Hotel-Airport in Orlando as "raunchy, despicable and worse than
prostitutes."

"We thought we were coming to Orlando, not the Las Vegas Strip," said
Mark Gilbert, the father of a boy who plays on the Clearwater Chargers,
a group of 13-and-under players from Florida.

The teams booked the $92-a-night rooms for Disney's Soccer Showcase,
and said hotel management did not tell them about the swingers' party
or try to keep the partygoers away from the children.

Hotel managers did not immediately respond to a call seeking comment
Tuesday. All of the swingers had checked out of the hotel by late
Sunday.

"We're not prudes by any means," said Rob Young of Greenville, S.C.,
who said his two daughters, Leah, 13 and Lauren, 11, asked questions he
struggled to answer. "We would have liked to have been informed when we
checked into the hotel so we could have made other arrangements.

"The kids could see through the glass atrium into the ballroom where
naked people were dancing. There were exposed breasts, thongs and
see-through dresses on women who were not wearing any underwear."

Young said he complained to hotel management and to John Hollis, an
off-duty Orlando police officer hired by the hotel for a New Year's Eve
security detail. He said neither did anything to help.

Lt. John Mina, a watch commander for the Orlando Police Department,
said Hollis didn't witness anything illegal.

Bob
Rancho Cucamonga, CA USA
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